The main suppliers do not do themselves any favours. The big retailers seem no clearer than I am. Rooster is wonderful, but are the Rooster parts legal to use in Championships?

There simply does not appear to be a website that offers any true clarification regarding all the latest tweaks.

I feel that if the Class Association or somebody else for that matter, does not try to offer some guidance through this rather muddy minefield of upgrades, then the class is in real danger of fragmenting into 'class legal'  and 'other' Lasers, if it has not already done so.

Current owners need to protect their investments, and they certainly need to be aware that the RS Aero is a major threat. If I bought an Aero, I would have a boat that was easier to sail, didn't need to be tweaked, and is a very good price, so I wouldn't have to worry about the legality or otherwise of any changes.

Can anybody shed any clarification on Legal Laser Upgrades?

http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=rbcs" rel="nofollow - http://www.roostersailing.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=rbcs

 

Rooster tillers are also legal (as are other 'non-laser' brands)

 

have you looked at the RYA/Paul Goodison Laser Book?

Not strictly true but I do agree that reading the current class rules is a good starting point.

The Tiller and Extension are free on manufacturer as long as they comply with the specification set out in the class rules. Rooster make one of the best Laser carbon tiller and extensions on the market for the boat. I had one on my boat for the majority of my Laser sailing career and would highly recommend them.

All other parts must be builder supplied and stamped with the Laser stamp (or have the button and correct label with regards to sails).

The only other exceptions I can think of are:

1) The fairleads for the traveller, boom (and cunningham if you have a classic rigged boat) which must either be all metal or all plastic (the ones with the stainless re-inforcing are not permitted). 

2) The hard metal eye on the boom (unless you have a soft strap, this is free but must use the existing holes I seem to recall) 

3) The jamming cleats for the traveller and outhaul (on the boom), these must be a specific model by Camcleat (the part number escapes me at present and I could be wrong on this but I know some guys in the US came unstuck when they had a different model of lceat the the NA champs a few years ago).

4) Any blocks are permitted in control lines (except the kicker bottom fitting which must be builder supplied). The restriction here is on the number of pieces of rope and total number of turning points that are allowed.

5) The deck cleats (if fitted) and the cleats for the control lines are free (as long as the control line cleats fit on the builder supplied base).

Remember the golden rule of the Laser rule set is:

If the rules do not explicitly say something is permitted then it is not.

If you are unsure you can contact various measurers for their opinion but they may refer you to the class measurer if they are unsure as only he can make a definitive ruling.

That is a new one on me.....been a while since I read them to be fair. Not that many 'race rigged' boats will have a cunningham fairlead these days as most (that are raced regularly) have been converted over to the XD style controls.

this thread should leave any 'potential new Laser owner' reaching for the *ero demo dates....  

I believe Grafham are getting 30+ out on a regular basis. A lot of other clubs have seen a big resurgence in the Solo class (Solo is definitely the go to class at Hunts for class racing now).

If you want something a little different the *ero is the way to go.

 

The important bit one more time:

Originally posted by getafix far greater comfort

I couldn't agree more.

Your muscles might still hurt, but FFS, it's a hiking boat

I agree with this!

I might have agreed with you once, but then I didn't see much wrong with weight jackets at the time either..... Far more comfortable ways to waste your hard earned nowadays, as well as get a rewarding, physical sail of a weekend, as we both know !

Why is that? The answers to the basic question have already been given, and they are not problematic.

The Aero and D-One can't really be compared to the Laser because neither of them has been under the slightest bit of real competitive pressure yet, whereas the Laser has been sailed by tens of thousands of people and hundreds of potential Olympians. RS and Devoti are great companies but if their classes were put under the same sort of pressure, on the water and off, who knows what would happen?  Have the Aero's class rules even been released yet?

I sometimes wonder whether the arrival of the 100, Aero, D 1 etc may not actually relieve the pressure on the Laser and other major existing classes. With so many new boats arriving, and rumours of others on the horizon, the chance of any one of them achieving critical mass in any country (apart perhaps from the UK, where sailors now appear to be happy with much less local class racing than in other countries) must surely be reduced.

Yes Mike, it has to be brainwashing, because there's no way that other people could have reasonable but different opinions on such matters, is there......

I have posted that I would quite like to see some mods to the boat, but the opinions of those who want to keep it as it is (or even as it was) seem to be based on reasonable and logical grounds, and not the product of anyone being brainwashed.

The sail has changed several times. The rigging has changed significantly. The foils have changed. Tillers have changed.

What has not changed are the things that make the boat what it is and this is important to the design of the boat (and to most people who actually sail the boat). 

I think it is great that you can jump in to an old Laser and still be competitive in it as long as you have a decent sail.

To make changes to the hull and spars will (effectively) obsolete the 100,000+ boats that are already out there. I know there is a carbon top section that is ready for release (subject to approval) and this will change the class . The spar is (apparently) designed to have the same bend characteristics as the current ali section but we all know that carbon will behave differently to ali (and it wont get a permanent bend).

And Chris you have a point, when a Laser is available second hand for a couple of grand, you do have wonder why folks would be willing to spend 5 or so on an *ero, or even more once you start looking at Solos and Supernovas.    

I do observe one thing though, the local club sailors I know who sail them, and enjoy them, rarely buy a new one.  Many say that if they had to buy a new boat, it probably wouldn't be a new Laser.... they fully accept the deficiencies in the technology, a compromise for easy sailing and class racing, but no way they'd be robbed at full RRP.  So it seems to me a large part of the marketing pyramid is based around new boat supply into the Olympic and Junior programme, which filters down into the adult club sailor market where the *eros seem to be targeting (along with other  well established incumbent classes).  

A quick walk around WPNSA in Feb last year was enough to see 20 or so new boats being fitted out for youth squad types, despite reported problems of availability of key components like sails in the general market.

So what happens if ISAF / IOC pull the plug?  My guess is that the pyramid crumbles - albeit slowly as the boats do last well.  I guess baby fingers knows the same thing- after all, his sponsorship of sailing through his allied company can't be based on demographics.  Those of an age to have newborns and toddlers rarely have the time and capital to pursue dinghy sailing in brand new boats.  So it's quite clear to me the sponsorship is politically motivated, to ensure one thing and one thing only, the Laser retains an institutional advantage over every other competitor it has.  If you are a fan of open markets and competition in the economy, then this sort of practice might stick in the craw just a bit... and that's without factoring in the considerations around the Bruce Kirby issue.

Cars do not last, they gradually disappear from our roads. Boats last much longer. Laser exist as an entity unto themselves, so familiar, as familiar as your own nose. Wipe them all away and look back in ten years. With new eyes you would wonder how they lasted so long. 

Good morning.

Laser Performance are supplying them with the sub contracted (wholly owned subsidiary) building the hulls.

Pico, Bahia and Vago are being built by whoever was building them before as (I believe) they are unaffected by the current legal dispute. As for how many they are selling who knows. The biggest market for them seems to be sailing centres.

Supply appears to be OK, the only thing in short supply are foils I am told by my contact (so don;t break one or you will be facing a long wait to get a replacement).

Sure, there are plenty of sailors who don't give damn for class politics- there are enough active Laser sailors who elect to not be members of the ILCA and its branches to suggest that the ILCA do not actually represent 'Laser sailors' anyway.  But to say that none of the power plays and business fighting (Kirby vs Babyfingers) does not affect them, is frankly a little naive.  

p.s. what was wrong with the 80's rocker line pre-edit?

apparently they are the official distributor for England & Wales.

Purple

Northampton Sailboats

Are the 3 official sources of new boats I know of. Obviously LP are the builder so you are buying direct.

Talking to Supernova sailors at our recent open. They agree that the new epoxy boats are much quicker but are philsophical about it and realise that the boat needs to be right before it goes any further. Laser never corrected its deficiencies and presumably never will. Fine, let addicted Laser sailors sail them, it is a free country. What I object to is that they are promoted as the pinnacle of single handed sailing.....they must be, Olympic boat and all that.

With the introduction of these new modern boats, as well as Nova's, Bytes etc. I can see the decline of Laser as club steeds while they continue isolated at international level. 

Remember those front engined Indycars that got whipped by a mid engined Lotus?

I love the click through on the Laser Performance logo on sailboats.co.uk:

http://www.sailboats.co.uk/shop-by-brand/popular-chandlery-brands/laserperformance" rel="nofollow - http://www.sailboats.co.uk/shop-by-brand/popular-chandlery-brands/laserperformance

 

I don't think I've ever heard anyone claim that.

 

Everyone knows that honour goes to the Finn ;-)

The Laser class fought long and hard against being "supported by elite sport"; so long and hard that sailing journalists like the long-gone Jack Knights advocated for the IYRU (and that is another example of how early the Laser was tipped to go Olympic) to create its own copy and chuck that in the Games.

The reason the class spent years fighting off the Games selection was because it is a poisoned chalice, as is glaringly obvious from any look at the numbers of boats sailing. Are the 470s (zero attendance at the UK nats over the last few years) reaping the benefits of "elite sport"? Are the 49ers (a mere 20 at their last nats) there only because of loaded dice? Was the Star a major class in many countries because of its status among the Olympic elite? Has the Finn become a popular boat in most English speaking countries because of its 60 years of elitism? How did the Hobie 405 and Hobie 16 do in the UK on the basis of their selection as squad/youth boats? Seen an Elliott 6 or Nacra F17 fleet at your local club lately?

I do however think that long term its days will be numbered,  i believe that ISAF and IOC will get bored of the political nonsense.  I think (certainly from a UK perspective) that new viable options are in the market place and are now at a realistic price point to cater for more of the market space.

That's a ridiculous thing to say, Mike. Do you always deride those who happen to have different preferences from you?

quite right, I have neglected to think of the Laser masters stuff.... they are all purchased for similar reasons.  I don't see the point of dashing off to check attendance stats, I genuinely assume they are as strong as ever, and probably reflect a more comparable demographic.

as for the brainwashing comments from Mike, I took that as a nuance towards the SMOD mentality and desire to timestamp development, rather than the Laser per say.  But I'm sure he's capable of defending his choice of words better than me.

I bought a brand new Laser some 10 years ago or so.

Having said that there have been no 'brand new' boats at Hunts for quite some time (the guy who works for LP excepted as his is a works boat).

The governing body of our sport supports participation in many different classes, all the way to Olympic level where people can sail Nacra 17s, 49ers, etc. Most of them are unpopular so obviously that is not the reason why the Laser is popular among "the addicts". 

No one claims that 470s are promoted as "the pinnacle of double handed sailing" yet they are Olympic - and almost dead in most countries at club level as are most Olympic classes. There seems to be a complete disconnect between the fact that most Olympic classes are struggling for numbers (and many squad classes) and the claims that Lasers depend on their Olympic and squad membership for their numbers. 

Finally, in most English-speaking countries motor racing is (despite enormous amounts of money thrown at it by its enormous parent industry) comparatively weak in terms of participation. In the UK motor racing is something like 3.5% as effective as sailing in terms of participation for money spent; that is, it takes 30 times as many sponsorship/industry dollars as sailing to attract each participant.

Given those facts, surely it's reasonable to say that the motor racing path may be the wrong one to follow and the sailing path the right one.

Yes

What we do sail in this country at least, is mono rigged single handers. Some of them are very nice modern designs, so we represent them at the pinnacle of sporting events with an ancient design which is no longer representative for the average sailor.

au contraire, the laser 'apologists' are simply forgetting they are posting in a thread in the dinghy development section.  And no matter how conflicted, twisted and misguided the 'laser bashers' may come across, we are all only trying to fathom out what the hell 'dinghy development' really means and what the boats will look like in 20 years time.  It's a sorrowful inditement of the sport if the answer to that question is 'nothing, no need to move on from the 1970s for great dinghies' isn't it?

You are of course utterly right - it's totally illogical to look past the £400 Laser, it's access to proper racing and the cheap cost of ownership through replica kit and then go and spend over tens times that on something that to the uninitiated, looks pretty much the same.  One sail, two poles, one lump of off-white plastic to sit on and a wiggle thing at the back that steers in the wrong direction...  but sailing is a passion, not a SUV purchase, and if the Laser leaves you limp-dicked at the prospect of sailing, then it's time to find something else.  There's nothing new about being a former Laser sailor, Mike's suggestions were simply around how to generate a 'returning laser sailor'.  

FWIW I am under no illusion that either *ero will kill off the laser.  I find the concept a) a bit pointless (and unwanted) and b) utterly futile - dinghy sailing is far too conservative.  And despite some observations from the US in that direction, I don't think RS are under any misguidance either on that front either.  Martin has said as much.  But both *eros are nice beach boats, and I for one hope we can race together without necessarily deviating from the line honours.  Hell, bring the Lasers along too, but please leave your metal vs non metal fairleads discussions out of it; oh, and feel free use your Rooster 8.1s, it'll even it up a bit on paper at least.

 

To be fair, most people post on this forum cos there isn't one called 'General Dinghy sh*te' and this one is at the top of the list, but I do accept your point.

What happened to Laser class numbers? Checking on my spreadsheet it seems that at UK national title level they have increased by around 50% since the late '70s. Yes, the open standard fleet has dropped but the rise in the separate Masters nationals* and the arrival of the Radial and 4.7 have more than compensated. 

In contrast, many other singlehanders have only held steady despite being developed over the years. Here's some UK national title entries from the '70s compared to the last two years;

For a start, it's not an indictment of the sport if the gear stays roughly the same - that's what it does in many other leisure pursuits doesn't it? Cricket bats, recorders, acoustic guitars, chess pieces, X One Designs.... not everyone gets caught up in the consumerist stuff that (as studies on happiness show) don't actually make people much happier. Hipsters around my city are still looking for old steel fixed-gear bikes, wearing tee shirts of '70s bands and playing SNES as much as the latest games. And the area of sailing that changed the most (windsurfing) also faded the most which hardly makes that a great model to follow.

Even I am getting fed up with this topic now!

To many eyes even a Supernova looks ancient compared to a foiler Moth or kiteboard but if you love it that's great and I'm not going to sl*g off your class or its sailors - if you and other people gave Laser sailors the same respect then you wouldn't end up getting fed up with our defence of our class. 

I can hand-on-heart say that the only aspect of L*ser ownership; owning, storing, rigging, sailing, racing, tweaking, maintaining, updating etc.. that was any where near as 'satisfying' as the other classes, was the racing.

Now, I simply come from the point-of-view that the best single-hander choice would be a more modern design, which offers the same type of racing experiences as the Laser can.  I just don't like it, that in the 2010's we are being told that we should be forced to accept the 'foibles' of such an old design, simply to enjoy 'big fleet' racing.

The 1970's band t-shirts, printed in a Chinese export processing zone; the original converse (sure, they're not just old ones from 2006 someone's pulled out a recycle bin); the stylised norcal beards..... all work a treat in the non-consumerist world of a social media consultancy or a crowd-source funded micro engineering business....

 

No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

 

If enough people bought one of the new designs, there would be big fleets.

 

I'm guessing (no real evidence to back it up) that the early adopters in one new class may become the early adopters in a subsequent newer design, so whilst 'progress' is happening and more new sexy designs come out, none of them will ever get the critical mass to have a big fleet circuit to rival the establish classes as chunk of the fleet will always move on to the next big thing.

 

Nothing wrong with that, but it just means that those that are after a large fleet circuit will stay with the Laser and Solo.

 

Were you listening to Radio 4 on the way home yesterday?

But still no answers.

Where the heck can a new starter get the info to sort out the L*aser modifications.

I continue to look, but clarity is sadly lacking

 

I'm not too bothered how many new lasers are sold, so to me it doesn't need to compete with the sexy new classes. I'm more worried about my cheap boat being able to compete with the other 20 that race from my club. If there were dramatic changes, aimed at trying to compete with newer designs made of newer technology, if 5 out of the 20 bought the update it would spoil what we have.

 

 

No but I was this morning. Erno Rubik said (paraphrase) 'some people love it, some people hate it.  If you hate it the problem is not with the cube, it is with you'.

It made me think about this thread, and the Laser.  For a millisecond it seemed to be quite synonymous, but then I remembered... no one f**ks their knees up playing with a Rubik's Cube.  

Ha ,ha, young Fuller!  think they wrote that just to cheer you up over breakfast!

 

Thought you must've heard this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b046l7zr" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b046l7zr

so they want sail numbers to identify you but you cant use a partial number because its too obvious 

I wonder if that pushing the limits and rule breaching is a fairly common trait of certain psyches; as such, the rigidity in the rules of the boat, means that the same proportion of folks with this character trait, who just happen to sail them, push the limits through kinetics and rules observation, rather than boat modification....

just some low-rent pop psychology.... I choose my words carefully when posing the initial question.  FWIW, I don't think you can characterise any one class as cheaters anymore than any other.  At every club I've sailed at for the past 30 years, we know who they are and generally speaking, we've done very little about it- be it rocking, penalty observation etc.  It's not age or boat choice driven, if I was to cast aspersions at these folks, then I'd say they're all quite good sailors, just not as good as think they should be.  I feel sorry for them actually.... I'd far rather be at the back and surprise myself on occasion with a mid fleet result, than have to cheat and piss folks off just to get into the lower echelons of the leading pack.       

Interesting thought. Along the same lines, the fewer rules there are then perhaps the fewer rules you can break. I have a rival with a very illustrious world-level record who has in the past proven himself to be very happy to break right of way and measurement rules, but in a discipline where there are basically no rules even he can't find anything to break.

BTW that guy didn't sail Lasers much.

I can't recall a single instance of cheating among those towards the front of national-standard Laser fleets. I didn't spend long sailing the class seriously because of injury, but I would have to say that at the front of the fleet the rules are extremely well observed. At the middle of the pack when the kids are out, it's not so good but the overall standard is fine.

I watched one of the most tense high-stakes Laser races in history, the famous match race between Scheidt and Ainslie, from a nearby shoreline with Tim Alexander (4th in the Laser worlds, 4th in the Olympics) and it was a classic example of hard fought sailing to the rules.

Sounds normal. Having the mainsheet stopper knot come undone is a significant problem, as I have found to my cost too many times. In a decent breeze getting the boat sailing again can be a difficult exercise and therefore it's a safety issue.

The a-holes are not the people who use the experience of decades of racing to prevent this kind of thing, but the people who sit on the sidelines without any actual knowledge of the issues and throw insults around.

This sort of thing happens in all sports. If my bike seat moves forward when I'm bicycle racing, I may be DSQd. If I accidentally failed to fill in my scoresheet correctly when playing golf, I get DSQd. If I don't comply with the radio check requirements when ocean racing, I may be DSQd.

If you don't play by the safety rules, you may get DSQ'd. Not a new concept to most of us.

Having run a few nationals I'm fairly sure that they just want to be able to identify you on the finish and results sheets, and they also want to encourage people to have the proper numbers by telling them that there is no advantage in not doing so.

Those who spend their hard-earned holidays running races so that other people can have fun are surely entitled to encourage people to have the right numbers when it makes the job of finishes and results easier?

Masters sailing? A load of short sighted geriatrics unable to grasp new ideas and wedded to out of date craft that take them back to their youth. So very sad.

There you go.......

n'ah we need some added sectarianism and nationalistic price.... it's trending worldwide on Twitter, and in Iraq....

So to kick it off.... 

UK entrants to Worlds Laser Masters = not good enough for Top 10 in the Solo Fleet

No. Hopefully Hartley marketing will help things out. Since the RYA will not adopt the boat but insist on supporting L***ser it struggles for a niche. Popular in the rest of the World for youth but here just small people most of whom love it.

It causes me great frustration!!!!