| Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
 |
| Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
 |
List classes of boat for sale |
Final Positions? |
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 234 |
| Author |
 Share Topic Printable Version Delicious Digg Facebook Furl Google MySpace Newsvine reddit StumbleUpon Translate Twitter Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks Topic Search  Topic Options
|
JimC 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661 |
 Post Options
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Final Positions?Posted: 11 May 07 at 10:19pm |
|
There's a whole world of difference between a close covering game between equal boats than between boats of radically different speeds. For one Laser to be able to sit on another and cover them to the back of the fleet takes skill. For (to take an extreme example) a 49er to cover a Solo to the back of the fleet would take very little skill and be pretty damn close to unsportsmanlike.
It certainly wouldn't be winning by sailing better in any shape or form, and is perilously close to not competing "in compliance with recognised principles of sportsmanship and fair play", and the penalty or that is a guaranteed series losing DND. Edited by JimC |
|
 |
|
|
Garry
Really should get out more
Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 13 May 07 at 2:57pm |
|
I can't see why a faster boat would want to sail a slower boat down the fleet in handicap racing. Firstly you don't know the final positions until the times have been corrected and secondly the relative positions between the boats gets worse for the fast boat the longer the race goes on for. Can someone show me some actual scoring that demonstrates this would work, i.e a series where in the last race the fast boat is last and the slow boat is in the bottom 50% of the fleet and the fast boat would win. Or if this scenario requires the slow boat to be second to last how will you know when to stop messing around and get back to racing?
|
|
|
Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
|
|
|
|
Hector
Really should get out more
Joined: 10 May 04 Location: Otley, Yorkshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 750 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 14 May 07 at 2:26pm |
|
If you're leading (excluding discard) before a final race, with only 2 boats in contention then obviously, the other team has to improve their score to beat you. If you can stop them doing that - you'll still be in front no matter where you finish. So in any series where there's a discard, and you're beating them before the last race, sailing them out of contention can succeed. You can even use it to beat a boat that's generally done the best and probably would win. For example Imagine a 50 boat Nationals 6 races, 5 to count: Boat A has 1- 1- 15 - 1 - 1 Total before last race 19 but after discard 4pts Boat B Has 2 - 3 - 5 - 2 - 6 Total before last Race 18 but after discard 12pts So if in the last race, Boat B can force Boat A to 15th or worse, Boat B still finishes with 18 and wins over Boat A who's still on 19. I totally agree that it's very unsporting to do that to a much slower boat.
|
|
|
|
|
Garry
Really should get out more
Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 15 May 07 at 7:58pm |
|
But in handicap racing your on the water position is NOT your finishing position, and if, as suggested its the faster boat sailing the slower boat to the back you increase the probability that the slower boat will beat you on handicap. So this strategy can not work in handicap racing, unless you bury the slow boat at the start and then sail very fast - but you won't know if its worked until after the times have been calculated. and if, as suggested you just sailed the slow boat backwards and you finished 16th the slow boat would finish behind on the water but ahead on handicap then you've given away your position. In the Lark for a 50 minute race I have to be some 2.5 minutes ahead of an Enterprise to beat it, so say I waste 15 minutes sailing them to the back, I've now got to achieve a 2.5 minute lead in the remaining 35 minutes sailing back through the slower boats and the Ent sailor must be as good as me otherwise I wouldn't bother. Boatspeed differential will only get me about 2 minutes - where does the rest of the time come from? |
|
|
Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
|
|
|
|
andymck
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 15 May 07 at 11:23pm |
|
Must admit i need a new rule book, but are a discard and an excluded race the same? If they are not then appendix A reads differently, and the way we were used to.
|
|
|
Andy Mck
|
|
|
|
|
gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 May 07 at 9:28am |
|
Andymck,
Can you find any use of the word "discard" in Appendix A? The rules only refer to excluded races. Gordon |
|
|
Gordon
|
|
|
|
|
Scooby_simon
Really should get out more
Joined: 02 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2415 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 17 May 07 at 12:47pm |
You are missing the whole point of the post above; I'll make it more extreame to make it obvious what we are trying to explain.... Fast boat has 1,1,2,2, 3,3 to count Slow boat has 2,2,1,3,1,9 to count in a fleet of 50 boats on hanicap. So in order to win the series, slow boat must score better than 3rd in the last race to win (so discarding the 9 and beating the 3 that fast boat is counting).
If fast boat sails slow down the fleet all the way around the course by covering them all the time, fast boat should be able to ensure that slow ends up with worse then 3rd. Fast boats position in the last race will not count(remember thar are countinmg a 3). The best plan for fast boat is to sail slow boat down the fleet as then have CONTROL over this. The only other way to ensure winning the series is to win the last race and this is not totally under their control. Slowing down the slow boat is under their control. |
|
|
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..
|
|
|
|
|
andymck
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 15 Dec 06 Location: Stamford Online Status: Offline Posts: 397 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 18 May 07 at 9:43pm |
|
Gordon, as you will see from my post I cant read appendix A, as I dont have a rule book! Is a discard now called an excluded race? Seems that natural justice should suppport the boat that did better in the event overall, rather than the one that was less consistent in a tie situation, I expect that this is just another attempt to make the Olyimpics on more exciting on the last day, and not about finding the best overall sailor. AndyMck |
|
|
Andy Mck
|
|
|
|
|
gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
Post Options
Quote Reply
Posted: 19 May 07 at 1:11am |
|
The rules are all available on www.sailing.org
Races are now excluded rather than discarded. The first tie break (best to worst) does not count excluded races, the second tie-break (result of last race) does. Clubs can adopt their own scoring system. They can, for instance, decide that, for club racing, series ties will not be broken and prizes/trophies shared. |
|
|
Gordon
|
|
|
|
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 234 |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy