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My unbiased ALTO review
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 2:58pm
Originally posted by Pierre

Thank you Bootscooter. Good review from someone with no axe to grind, and who has actually taken the time and trouble to try the boat.
Certainly a more flexible alternative than an RS400 I think.  Wink

'flexible' is not always a positive thing to say about a lighweight boat! :-)

I don't think the Alto competes with the 400, if  I wanted a trapeze boat I wouldn't have a 400.
I can imagine the Alto is a nice boat to race against other Altos, but there are none around here.
I think the swingiing pole is going to make it hard to get meaningful close PY racing in the way that it seems to work reasonably well for asy's or sym's or no kite of reasonably close PY but not a mixture of  two or three sorts.
It's like racing 400's against a lot of Merlins, alright for fun, a nice change now and then, but not something I'd spend 3k to do, let alone £10k.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:03pm
Originally posted by iGRF

 but lets assume it's what it was back a couple of years ago when it used to matter and by and large it was aimed at force 3 winds. .

what a load of b**locks... it is, and always has been made up from the returns of sailing clubs.  Do those returns have a field for capturing wind strength data.....?  I doubt it.

.... so more lies and misunderstanding about PY racing.  Although I applaud your initial observations... boats which are 'similar enough' can raced scratch for some club racing.  No need for PY at all if you think a B14 is like-for-like comparable to an ASBO- in turn comparable to an RS500.  

Personally I'd need the performance variation narrowed a little further than that to really think it meaningful enough, but each club to its own and a former windsurfing club would certainly be more lenient towards kit variation than one built on the legacy of class dinghy racing... But it's all moot, I couldn't even get any conceptual buy-in for a combined 'high performance fleet' for RS700s and MPSs... and they have the same feckin' PY number...  no point bringing it up again, I don't think either are sailed regularly at our club anymore now. 

The best thing about PY racing it seems is that it gives people lots of excuses when they take their little potter around the cans a bit too seriously.  


Edited by pondmonkey - 12 Apr 13 at 3:11pm
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by RS400atC


Originally posted by iGRF

..... it can take on B14's if they drop the ball, a V3k will give it a real run for its money if their crew is light and the wind is strong as can an RS500, but if you do it right make no mistakes you can beat them all.

I think PY of 925 .......
B14=870RS500 9753000=some made up number with an extra digit.sounds like a recipe for equitable competitive racing where people feel PY gives a fair result /sarcasm.


Well let me qualify all that for the sake of the boat if not my dubious opinion.

From what I can see the PY thing is a made up number that gets messed about according to all sorts of different folks Agenda lately but lets assume it's what it was back a couple of years ago when it used to matter and by and large it was aimed at force 3 winds.

Below that threshold an Alto will take on a B14, will annihilate even the V3k, the RS500 which then I used to sail off 963 before I swapped it for the Alto which was 935 and in a distance offshore race struggled against an Osprey at 940.
Then a few hot shots got in the Alto and in a strong breeze did some damage to the handicap. However had someone handy been in that same race with a V3k they would have beaten them as demonstrated at the Man of Kent when dumb and dumber were victorious, but handicaps are not aimed at strong breeze as I said earlier.

But the key for the Alto, even in sub trapping weather it can still hold it's own where skiff stuff like B14's and L4ks can't, so when a couple of ringers show up in an RS400 you can still take them on even though nowadays you are disadvantaged by having a trappy stronger weather biased 915-25 handicap.

So all in all, the 'fair' PY is going to all over the place depending on the conditions?
My point exactly.
Apart from fleet racing, I suppose a boat like that will come into its own over fixed courses, like 'round some lump of mud', where actual elapsed time has more meaning in its own right than aroud a few inflatable marks that are moved from day to day.


Is the V3k really that much faster than the L3000?
Or is the L3000 really a bandit?
Anyone who designed a trapeze boat after about 1980 and it came out with a 4 digit PY really needs to get their excuses ready.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:12pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

It's like racing 400's against a lot of Merlins, alright for fun, a nice change now and then, but not something I'd spend 3k to do, let alone £10k.

quite...  Thumbs Up
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


.Is the V3k really that much faster than the L3000?Or is the L3000 really a bandit?Anyone who designed a trapeze boat after about 1980 and it came out with a 4 digit PY really needs to get their excuses ready.


Ask me in what wind, the windier it is the faster the V3k is, it's light, stiff, I think has a bigger sail and all the stuff is transferable so we never knew when D&D were using bits of one on the other, but in those days they used to mill around the start line for a couple of minutes deciding wether to join in or not til we taught them some elementary tactics like if you want to do well you really should start around the same time as everyone else.

MM would know, he races them is allegedly handy, even though constrained by Kentish Man north of the river inbreeding.

The L3k was my first two man boat, we used to do OK if it was windy, but would be overwhelmed by stuff like RS200's if the wind dropped, it has a skiffy bottom and straight rockered stern, but us in an L3k against us in an Alto, no chance, doubt even if we could take Dumb and Dumber on at their worse, hmm come to think of it, no, at their worse yes highly doable.
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


So all in all, the 'fair' PY is going to all over the place depending on the conditions?



But that's not something that should be just aimed at the Alto - we all know that a British Moth outperforms its handicap in the light stuff. We all know that a V3000 does the same when it's honking. We all know that the opposite is true when the conditions are reversed.
I would suggest that the two boats that stand a reasonable chance of maintaining a performance anywhere near their PY number over a wide range of conditions are the RS400 and the Alto, due to the swinging pole. And that's why they were included in the design.

You are coming across as very negative towards the Alto, and I don't understand why?
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by cad99uk

Great review Bootscooter. Thanks.
 

What is your all up crew weight when sailing the Alto?


Currently we total nearly 173KG (with about 96 of it at the back end *looks embarrassed*).
I think it would be perfectly competitive with far less than that in the boat, but it shows that it's capable of carrying weight, as per the design brief.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:28pm
Originally posted by Bootscooter

Originally posted by RS400atC


So all in all, the 'fair' PY is going to all over the place depending on the conditions?



But that's not something that should be just aimed at the Alto - we all know that a British Moth outperforms its handicap in the light stuff. We all know that a V3000 does the same when it's honking. We all know that the opposite is true when the conditions are reversed.
I would suggest that the two boats that stand a reasonable chance of maintaining a performance anywhere near their PY number over a wide range of conditions are the RS400 and the Alto, due to the swinging pole. And that's why they were included in the design.

You are coming across as very negative towards the Alto, and I don't understand why?

I've not got anything against the Alto as a fleet racing boat, I think it is an abuse of PY.
I think PY can work very well with comparable boats.
Laser vs Supernovae vs streaker vs Solo etc
Wayfarer vs Ent
RS500 vs Laser 4000 vs ISo
505 vs 470 vs Osprey
The more similar the boats in terms of sail configuration, size and speed the better it works.
I think stretching the system to try to get serious racing between boats that are too dissimilar messes up the system for everybody.
The Alto is too different from everything else, closest comparison might be a Laser 4000.
To say it compares with a 400 seems very dubious to me, it is much longer and has a trapeze.
But if you are touting PY's in the 920 region, it looks like poor all round performance for a long light boat with 15 years of 'progress' and a trapeze compared to the 400.
Against the L4000, it suggests the Alto really ought to be quicker if its basic hull design is anything to bother with, and the swinging pole is getting you no real gain.

I can understand that none of this matters if you don't take your racing seriously and just want a boat you enjoy sailing, but I find it hard to square that with a £10k price tag. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong, lots of people buy foul rotomoulds for far too much money and never get value from them, IMHO, it's cheaper than a cruiser I suppose....
But I don't think non-serious club racing needs a £10k price tag. Not if you want a good range of people to sail against.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:37pm
So how do you feel about the X1 then?
Surely according to your logic that must be an abuse of PY.

It's called moving with the times.. build yourself a bridge...
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:55pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So how do you feel about the X1 then?
Surely according to your logic that must be an abuse of PY.

It's called moving with the times.. build yourself a bridge...

I do have reservations about the X1, but river clubs tend to be more fleet-oriented.
And there is probably a genuine niche for a river boat bigger than a Merlin that isn't an A rater.

I'm not whether we are really moving with the times in terms of taking the 505 and 'improving' it into some thing 20 points slower. It's 90's technology at best.
Moving with the times might be thinking of a Rooster 8.674 'ap' for your Solo platform?

I suspect the chances of an Alto or an X1 turning up at my club before my knees give out are pretty limited. But if work took me somewhere where they seemed the best people to sail against, I'd probably buy either.
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