My unbiased ALTO review
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10819
Printed Date: 17 Jul 25 at 1:36am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: My unbiased ALTO review
Posted By: Bootscooter
Subject: My unbiased ALTO review
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 9:13pm
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Ok, so where to start with this unbiased review of the Alto? I suppose by declaring a slight bias, in that I have always liked the look of it – not just the physical, but the concept of the boat. Since it appeared a few years ago, I’ve wanted to have a go, to see if it lived up to it’s stated aim of providing a modern, up-to-date design that provided fast, affordable performance without the need for a full-on racing snake physique.
Much has been made of the Alto’s 505 derived heritage but other than dimensionally, there aren’t any obvious reminders of this. In my opinion the 5oh is the most beautiful dinghy hull shape ever penned, so from that viewpoint the lack of the long curved foredeck and sexy wide, flared gunwales is a disappointment, but this is made up for somewhat by lines and chines that look bang up to date. It is a large boat and appears larger in the flesh (especially when parked next to my OK) than it did when I saw it at the Dinghy Show, but for all it’s size, a hull weight of 82 Kg makes it easily manoeuvrable around the dinghy park. Rigging the boat is a simple affair with no surprises. The current jib has forestay clips up it’s luff which are simple and easy to use. A zipped luff version is being looked into, I believe, but while this may have a positive performance impact I do feel that for sailors in the real world of Club/Open racing the ability to merely drop/ flake the jib and tie securely with a line whilst having lunch is of more practical use. The mainsail goes easily up the carbon mast via a 2:1 halyard and all the tails stash neatly away in a pocket of the fabric foredeck. That foredeck is a fantastic feature which allows simple access to all the bits that have the ability to go wrong on an asymmetric-kite boat both on and off the water, and makes the initial halyard routing on stepping the mast a doddle. The Alto launches without drama off it’s purpose built gunwale-hung trolley and sits quite stably on the water, even in stronger winds and climbing aboard requires no feats of acrobatics. Both the foils are hauled down smoothly and certainly have a feeling of quality, inspiring confidence. Those last two words are massively important, as it’s a theme that seems to run through the whole boat. Once you sheet in the boat accelerates very quickly – not in a nervous, jittery way, but with a smooth feeling of controllable power. The only thing I can liken it to is the speed and handling of a big Jaguar or Aston Martin Coupe, as opposed to a Lotus Elise, for example. Similar speeds, but a very different feeling.... Whoosh! Upwind it’s fast – deceptively so! That static stability I mentioned earlier gets even greater when you’re under way so that when a gust hits there isn’t a panic to maintain control, there’s a slow roll that gives the crew time to adjust positioning and sails to make the most of the opportunity. I’ve not taken the crew position on the boat yet (I’m useless up the pointed end!) but Cameron had no problem getting out and back in from the wire. The side-decks and gunwale are covered in ProGrip (or similar) and provide a secure area to plant your feet. In sub-planing conditions it’s easy to get forward to avoid dragging the stern, but as the wind increases you can feel the boat just wanting to get on the plane and fly. In a breeze we’ve tended to knock off a few degrees of pointing to raise the speed and this seems to be pretty effective in a fast handicap fleet. With the particular boat we’ve borrowed there have been a couple of issues with the self-tacking jib – the sheet is led forward through a “guide” block attached by shock-cord, then through a double-block at the bow that is also used by the kite system, before being led aft under the foredeck. This set up was experimental, and we had an issue with the double-block being pulled in different directions, eventually jamming the sheet. As I said, this was an experimental setup that hadn’t been tested, but we made adjustments to the shock-corded guide block and this has alleviated the problem. The other solution is two single blocks at the bow. Separate rig and jib-luff tension is controlled by the by the helm, by way of cleats on the starboard/aft of the the centreboard case. This works well and is easily adjusted, even on the move. Cunningham and Kicker (Gnav) controls are led to the port/aft of the case. Maybe it just me, but these controls didn’t have a lot of feel to them, and as you’ll see on the video, I don’t think I’ve been using enough kicker. I’m going to ProLube the boom gnav slider and track for the next sail, and this may well fix that feeling. Again, it may be just me, but I felt a little unsure about having these controls effectively on the centreline as the time when I want to use them is when we’re overpowered, ie hiking hard from the sidedeck. Tim from the Class has sent me pictures of one of the boats they’ve sold that was spec’ed with dual kicker controls – a tidy job it was too, and one that I’d definitely want. The kite system works well, with a single line hoisting and deploying the pole. The chute mouth is a good size, allowing hoists and drops from both tacks without jamming. Downwind with the kite up the speed is amazing in a good breeze. The bow loves to lift, and in flat water the spray hitting you is not excessive. The overriding feelings are of speed, control and confidence (there’s that word again). Our second sail in the boat was in honking wind, 4s gusting 5s maybe, and I never once felt that we were going to go for a swim, not even when gybing! She just sits there, firing along, under control and ready to respond to sail and steering inputs. In lighter wind (and when we’ve got our angles wrong) we used the wingwang to great advantage. As you’d expect, the loads on the pole-lines are pretty big so it takes good timing and teamwork to ease the kite and cant the stick to windward at the same time, but once done dead-running is perfectly achievable. Whilst not a big player for us at Farmoor, I could see this would be of huge benefit when cheating the tide or flow close to shore on the sea or river. It works, and really well, but you mustn’t forget to straighten the pole before dropping the kite of course. There are some other minor niggles, most of which you’d sort out for yourself as an owner. The moulding on the top of the centreboard case has a lip extending laterally alongside where the helm sits, and it could be useful as a toehold for a bit of hiking – not a bad thing in itself, but the toestrap sits very close to this and is one of the reasons (along with age, fitness and laziness) why I can be seen on the video not hiking quite as far out as I should. My biggest problem with the design is the amount of water that you ship in if you “over-roll” in a tack. Perhaps I’m just used to boats with more freeboard, and I’m sure you’d adapt your technique in time, but it’s a huge amount of water for a mistake, that wasn’t actually that close to a capsize! Despite being fitted with a pair of good sized self-bailers (and transom flaps) it takes the length of a hefty beat to clear as well. Again, maybe I’ve just got used to self-draining cockpits... So how would I summarise the Alto experience? After the first couple of sails I was concerned that it was all too easy. The stability, control and confidence you get in the boat made it feel that there was little challenge in sailing the thing, but on reflection I realised that this was a positive. I’ve owned a string of hard-to-sail boats and enjoyed them, but never reached my potential as training, practice and fitness time was lacking in my life. This boat allows you to go fast and have fun, but also gives you the chance to concentrate on actually racing as opposed to merely surviving. We’ve been racing in the Fast Handicap fleet so far, that sails round-the-cans courses, and starts 3 minutes after the Asymmetrics that sail windward/Leeward (but using the same windward mark). In certain conditions we’ve made massive inroads in to that “head start” against some lower PY’d classes – I’m looking forward to starting with them on their course in the next couple of weeks! Value wise, it seems tremendous.... a boat that can not only be used, but properly raced and competitive in all conditions up to F6 (or more, dependant on ability of course) for £9500ish including Combi and cover I think, is hard to beat. My son knows little about 505’s so can’t use it to compare,so likens it to a “properly grown up Laser 3000 on steroids” and I don’t think he’s far off the money with that. There aren’t that many current, single trapeze, spinnaker boats out there on the market and this is a great boat that could and should fill that gap. It’s only marketplace problem is that it’s not up against like-for-like boats for sales, but others such as the RS800 which also have plenty of second handers up for grabs. Which would I have? The one that’ll allow me to sail, race and be competitive all year round, and won’t threaten to tip me out/break my body/be frustrating on a Wednesday evening light wind race. I’ll be honest – I’m beginning to love the Alto. There, I’ve said it. Would I buy one? If I had that amount of money to spend then the answer then the answer is an emphatic yes. Link to my Alto video; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64OwQPoAV20 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64OwQPoAV20 Thanks for reading (if you got this far!) 
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Replies:
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 10:11pm
What are you going to be competitive against? The Alto is neither a conventional symmetric kite boat, nor a proper asy. Even without the latest round of munging, your PY will never be right, on days when the swinging pole is a real bonus you will do well, other days your PY will be against you. You imply that you don't have the cash to buy one, what's the point of enthusing about it then? If you ain't in the market, the fact that it seems to suit you is kind of irrelevant at best, at worst it implies that it's a £10k boat for £3k sailors. (I don't mean to insult you as a £3k sailor, it's what my boat's insured for, it seems a fair budget for club racing to me!). A boat like that needs a fleet, it needs marketing to groups of people who can afford it, get a bunch of them in one club, like the D-ones have done at Lymington. That will tell you about its qualities as a boat to race. I know they've done that with the Atlo somewhere on the muddy side of the country... |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 10:19pm
Blimey who's a bit negative today! 
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 10:36pm
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Well one point at a time...
Oxford, like most Clubs I know of, have very little "fleet" racing. They have Lasers, perhaps A.N.Other class fleet, and the rest is handicapped. If I bought a B14 I'd have no other to race against. Same for 29er, 505, 420,470. There's 1 RS300, 2/3 Contenders, 2/3 RS400s, but they're all in the FHcap fleet. So what does it matter so long as I enjoy the boat? Sunday we got a 3rd and a 1st against Contender, RS400, Phantom RS600 and others. That's what I'm talking about. Incidentally, Sunday was the day we put the cameras on the boat, filming during the races for the video.... so hardly the light wind wingwanging weather that you say we need to compete on handicap. Why not enthuse about something you've tried and found to be really rather good? The Alto gets a lot of "airtime" on here with a lot of comments from people who've never sailed it, so after some questions in other threads I thought I'd put up my honest thoughts, both good and bad. My reasons for arranging some time with the boat were twofold; 1. To see for myself if the reality held with the concept 2. To evaluate and pass on thoughts to RAFSA, as I figured there was a possibility that the design may fit some of the organisation's needs. So £10K or £3K, that's my reasoning. You're right, it does need a fleet, but they don't appear overnight - perhaps other OSC members may be interested, having actually seen it race (don't forget most of these people never fleet race, but still go and buy a new boat every few years. The fact that there is now a demo boat about shows that there is now some marketing going on. Again, I've got no axe to grind, no need to sell this as I've not even got a boat, or the necessary funds right now, but there's interest in the Alto, and perhaps a balanced review on here is helpful to people considering buying a similar type of boat. After all, that's what's in the magazine, right? |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 11 Apr 13 at 11:48pm
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good balanced review. (shame most of the ones in y&y these days are not as good) when you find any boat fun, it great to share that joy and information. i always thought that was one of the things this forum was for. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 12:01am
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The 2 or 3 RS400's know how they did against each other on their own merits. Your result is fairly meaningless, it would tell us more if you told us what PY you were sailing off. A fast boat is a nice thing to have, a boat that does well on PY is a secondary thing, as the PY will change over time, if it actually had a PY that is. Speed will sell, spreadsheet results won't. If you told me you were x% faster around the course, than say a 400, that would tell me something, although of course, 400 sailors vary and we don't have a trapeze. If I was in the market for a running, single trap longish boat, I'd either get a 505 or an Osprey or whatever people raced locally. Maybe a fireball, anywhere except the Solent. But in the 21st century, if your talking trapeze boats, and don't have the luggage of an existing class, what on earth is the point of the heavy person sitting on the side? That bloke Eelstorm knew a few things, helming his 505 from the wire.... |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 12:55am
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Well the heavy person was sat on the side (in this case) because he's a rubbish crew, and the lighter person is enjoys crewing!
We are using a PY of 925, which is what is advised by the Class, for alternative numbers, GRF has had a few different ones. Open events have given a variety from what I've seen, some more generous and others harsher. Elapsed and corrected times are recorded on the results section of the OSC website. I e just been and had a look, and in the afternoon race that we won, when it was breezier, in a race lasting just over an hour, we were 7 mins ahead of the Contender and RS600 and 14 mins ahead of the Phantom. In the morning race we were way back as we filled the boat up during a (very) poor tack after the first leeward mark. You prefered choices of running trapeze boats are all great boats, but as I've already inferred at our club, regular active boats include; Fireball-1, 505-0, Osprey-0, so why not an Alto? Admittedly £9.5 would buy a very good second hand example of any of those classes, but is still (I would guess) around half the price of a new one. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 12:59am
| Brand new Furball from £9850 |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 1:12am
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With the carbon stick, covers, combi trailer etc? If so, that's also very good value.
I don't know why you appear to be so upset about my review? I'm not trying to sell them (I think I've already explained that I've no vested interest at all) I just figured that some on here may be interested In how I got on with it... Thanks Ex Laser |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:46am
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"when you find any boat fun, it great to share that joy and information. i always thought that was one of the things this forum was for."  Of course it could be said the race results mean little but the reality is that is the case for all PY racing. As much as the big swing pole will skew some results, wind and tide will do the same for all other classes, 420s in blow, British Moths in a drifter, etc. Will I be buying one? No, however in the year the Alto was launched I did buy and fit out a new hull of a class that I enjoy, my fleet racing is limited to travellers and I accept the home handicap racing for what it is. I hope and expect the Alto will attract sailors of a similar mindset.
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Posted By: mongrel
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 8:21am
Excellent reviw Boot, better than the mag!
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Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 8:47am
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Having heard so much about it it was great to see the video and your constructive review. Its way out of my price range and wouldnt suit the puddle sailing I presently do but thanks for your efforts.
You could of course have just written a couple of sentences saying I like the boat, but you didnt you took time to put some thought into why you liked it etc etc. Thank you.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 9:43am
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Nice review, worth reading.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 9:59am
I hope, above all expectation, for a return to a scenario where you don't need to travel to get good quality fleet racing. I was surprised in the review that OSC is mainly a handicap racing club, their website would paint a different perception to the would-be new member. I am definitely in the 'half full' camp when it comes to our sailing club these days... we've got great fleet racing and handicap racing available if you really do want to sail something else. I know the cliched 'proliferation of classes' argument is usually lobbed at any new entrant like the Alto, I've even read folks saying that in order to launch a new class, the company should buy up the class they are trying to usurp, burn them and offer cheap replacements to former owners. Nonsense of course, capitalism doesn't work like that; besides there has always been 'lots of classes', it's just that club sailors used to value class racing more in the past and as a collective body, a club of members, would normally select classes appropriate to their home waters. I guess the horse has bolted on that one, after all it wasn't so long ago I was also transfixed by the illusion there really is a 'perfect boat' out there. And that the PY system really could deliver the same quality of racing as a class regatta or a class race if only it were 'used right' as per the RYA instructions. In truth, there is no 'right way to use it' anymore than there is a 'perfect boat', as it varies depending the club and the individuals as to how any of that could be defined. At best a PN provides a framework for a competitive cruise in company. Taken with the right attitude that pill is not so bitter to swallow once in a while- just see the fun we had at the FOM, or the town regattas that go on around the country in the summer months. At the other end of the spectrum it facilitates the worst the sport can offer- oneupmanship on boats, cheating on class rules, disharmony in a sailing club and reams of discontent and disillusionment for the sailors themselves. I used to think it was sailing Lasers that 'did it' for a lot of my pre-uni sailing mates when they gave up dinghy sailing. Now I'm questioning that... maybe it wasn't the Laser, maybe it was the fact that once young and competitive fleet racers are thrust into the bullsh*t that is adult handicap racing, with all its jibber-jabber about bandits, annual returns, loss of boat on boat tactics etc well is it any wonder they lose interest, especially at an age where political awareness is forming and a (healthy) disrespect for bureaucracy and establishment is omnipresent amongst intelligent teenagers and young people? So ideally I'd love to think that there were several clubs I could join within an hour of where I live- each offering different classes suitable to their waters, racing properly, in class races. Could I see the Alto within that mix? Absolutely, by many accounts it now seems to be a very nice boat from those who've sailed her, so it seems a shame to have it lumped into the dross of 'another handicap fleet boat', where frankly spending ten grand to compete seems a fools errand, especially as 'new boats' quite often seem penalised by the very system they set their stall on. So maybe one day there will be a local 'hub' nearby... when dinghy racing returns to some sense and starts racing boat-on-boat locally again. You never know, it could happen in my lifetime and a boat like an Alto would be quite 'cool' to crew for those late teens and early 20 somethings who cannot afford a decent boat themselves. There's certainly enough going on upfront, especially if the helm is generous off the water in the bar too! I heard Blake 7's coming back and Cath Kidston's on record sales... the MPSs and Moths have been 'bunching up' for a while now, and they're usually a few light years ahead of the rest of us.... Good luck Alto, and thanks for the excellent review Bootscooter!
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Posted By: AlanH
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 10:15am
| Great review, bootscooter. Nice to see lots of enthusiasm here for a boat, instead of the usual whining/ nitpicking often seen on this forum. Concentrate on the positive, not the missing bits. Would be good to see more positive views like this. Without going into types of boat, I like a boat which is good to sail. If you can take it out, preferably in different wind conditions, and just enjoy the feel of the boat, without needing to race it, then you've got a good boat. Class racing is nice, but if you can enjoy just sailing your boat, you've picked a good one. |
Posted By: kingdacks
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 10:29am
| The fact that skrillex is the backing music to the video makes me want to switch off and not watch the rest, doesnt do a boat like that justice. |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 10:36am
Absolutely agree with you Alan.
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 10:41am
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Hi Boot
Lee on solent has a growing fleet of RS400,S and Laser 2000 or whateever it is now called. 1 hour may be pushing it from Oxford. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:09am
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james, i agree with most of your last post, but in my experience there is at lot more, boat one upmanship, cheating and disagreeable behaviour in class open meetings than i have ever had sailing py races at my home club. ------------- |
Posted By: cad99uk
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:23am
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Great review Bootscooter. Thanks.
What is your all up crew weight when sailing the Alto?
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:29am
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Hi Duncan, I've never been to a class event where year on year, there's some controversy or other about the legality of the winners equipment.... but I take your point, and would probably attribute the positivity towards your clubs ethos, and the fact that as a small venue, you can still have meaningful boat on boat racing without the separation of larger courses with boats of significantly different speeds. ------------- |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:38am
i think your right, my club might be small( in every sense of the word) but it has a great atmosphere and with nine marks on eight acres we always have a lot of boat on boat action! ------------- |
Posted By: rogerd
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 11:52am
| How many clubs still restrict classes raced. I know Budworth do. Any others |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 12:06pm
even Budworth offer handicap racing on Saturdays for any boats with a PY of 960+... ... how the mighty have fallen  ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 12:10pm
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Well I'm pleased to read that someone who has an obvious pedigree in what y'all would regard as sailing proper dinghy boats, likes it as much as I did.
My well documented take from day one 8 years ago, was 'someone needs to take a 505 make it lighter, assymettric and easier to understand, wouldn't that be a great boat' and they already had all I had to do was wrestle it away from them at the dinghy show, which was probably the worse marketing decision they ever made having me sail it and wind you lot up.. Whatever, if you're stupid enough not to try something purely because you don't like whoever it might be that either sails or sells it, then more fool you. It does have faults, it could be a lot better, but given all the problems they had getting it to where it is today, I admire the tenacity of all currently still commercially involved. I've just bought a new bright red kite, ordered it one day it arrived the next, a lot easier than dealing with those muppets at P&B who frankly sat on the brand for a couple of seasons and did nothing with it. My biggest loss was my crew Steve, but even so I've still won stuff with other crews in it, it is a crews boat as long as the vegetable at the back aims it roughly where you need to go, if the crew calls the shifts and in some circumstances even takes the mainsheet if it's exceptionally gusty, the Alto will deliver excellent performance that will sail to near 505 performance. It isn't over all wind strengths as fast as a 505, upwind it lacks the jib overlap, downwind unless you have hot angled planing it lacks the killer planing soak capability provided by the 505's monster kite. In light weather you can have a great tussle with an RS400, once once on the wire that game is over, it'll have a good race with a Laser 4000, it can take on B14's if they drop the ball, a V3k will give it a real run for its money if their crew is light and the wind is strong as can an RS500, but if you do it right make no mistakes you can beat them all. I think PY of 925 is fair inland and I've also sailed it to 915 which if I don't drop the ball is possible so, probably 920 would be a fair compromise, but still we get nailed by Merlin Bandits if the course or conditions suit. I'm back in mine this sunday and compared to sailing that EPS it'll be like climbing off a M/cycle scrambler or a dune buggy and settling into the driving seat of an Aston Martin, no, maybe even the co drivers seat, someone else does all the work as should be the case for a gentleman helm. |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 1:10pm
Wembley SC and the other clubs that sail on the Welsh Harp in North London. My club has fleets but one of the 'fleets' is a handicap fleet to mop up any all comers.
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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 1:28pm
South Staffs. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 1:58pm
B14=870 RS500 975 3000=some made up number with an extra digit. sounds like a recipe for equitable competitive racing where people feel PY gives a fair result /sarcasm. |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 2:09pm
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Thank you Bootscooter. Good review from someone with no axe to grind, and who has actually taken the time and trouble to try the boat. Certainly a more flexible alternative than an RS400 I think.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 2:56pm
Well let me qualify all that for the sake of the boat if not my dubious opinion. From what I can see the PY thing is a made up number that gets messed about according to all sorts of different folks Agenda lately but lets assume it's what it was back a couple of years ago when it used to matter and by and large it was aimed at force 3 winds. Below that threshold an Alto will take on a B14, will annihilate even the V3k, the RS500 which then I used to sail off 963 before I swapped it for the Alto which was 935 and in a distance offshore race struggled against an Osprey at 940. Then a few hot shots got in the Alto and in a strong breeze did some damage to the handicap. However had someone handy been in that same race with a V3k they would have beaten them as demonstrated at the Man of Kent when dumb and dumber were victorious, but handicaps are not aimed at strong breeze as I said earlier. But the key for the Alto, even in sub trapping weather it can still hold it's own where skiff stuff like B14's and L4ks can't, so when a couple of ringers show up in an RS400 you can still take them on even though nowadays you are disadvantaged by having a trappy stronger weather biased 915-25 handicap. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 2:58pm
'flexible' is not always a positive thing to say about a lighweight boat! :-) I don't think the Alto competes with the 400, if I wanted a trapeze boat I wouldn't have a 400. I can imagine the Alto is a nice boat to race against other Altos, but there are none around here. I think the swingiing pole is going to make it hard to get meaningful close PY racing in the way that it seems to work reasonably well for asy's or sym's or no kite of reasonably close PY but not a mixture of two or three sorts. It's like racing 400's against a lot of Merlins, alright for fun, a nice change now and then, but not something I'd spend 3k to do, let alone £10k. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:03pm
what a load of b**locks... it is, and always has been made up from the returns of sailing clubs. Do those returns have a field for capturing wind strength data.....? I doubt it. .... so more lies and misunderstanding about PY racing. Although I applaud your initial observations... boats which are 'similar enough' can raced scratch for some club racing. No need for PY at all if you think a B14 is like-for-like comparable to an ASBO- in turn comparable to an RS500. Personally I'd need the performance variation narrowed a little further than that to really think it meaningful enough, but each club to its own and a former windsurfing club would certainly be more lenient towards kit variation than one built on the legacy of class dinghy racing... But it's all moot, I couldn't even get any conceptual buy-in for a combined 'high performance fleet' for RS700s and MPSs... and they have the same feckin' PY number... no point bringing it up again, I don't think either are sailed regularly at our club anymore now. The best thing about PY racing it seems is that it gives people lots of excuses when they take their little potter around the cans a bit too seriously.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:11pm
So all in all, the 'fair' PY is going to all over the place depending on the conditions? My point exactly. Apart from fleet racing, I suppose a boat like that will come into its own over fixed courses, like 'round some lump of mud', where actual elapsed time has more meaning in its own right than aroud a few inflatable marks that are moved from day to day. Is the V3k really that much faster than the L3000? Or is the L3000 really a bandit? Anyone who designed a trapeze boat after about 1980 and it came out with a 4 digit PY really needs to get their excuses ready. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:12pm
quite...  ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 3:30pm
Ask me in what wind, the windier it is the faster the V3k is, it's light, stiff, I think has a bigger sail and all the stuff is transferable so we never knew when D&D were using bits of one on the other, but in those days they used to mill around the start line for a couple of minutes deciding wether to join in or not til we taught them some elementary tactics like if you want to do well you really should start around the same time as everyone else. MM would know, he races them is allegedly handy, even though constrained by Kentish Man north of the river inbreeding. The L3k was my first two man boat, we used to do OK if it was windy, but would be overwhelmed by stuff like RS200's if the wind dropped, it has a skiffy bottom and straight rockered stern, but us in an L3k against us in an Alto, no chance, doubt even if we could take Dumb and Dumber on at their worse, hmm come to think of it, no, at their worse yes highly doable. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:07pm
But that's not something that should be just aimed at the Alto - we all know that a British Moth outperforms its handicap in the light stuff. We all know that a V3000 does the same when it's honking. We all know that the opposite is true when the conditions are reversed. I would suggest that the two boats that stand a reasonable chance of maintaining a performance anywhere near their PY number over a wide range of conditions are the RS400 and the Alto, due to the swinging pole. And that's why they were included in the design. You are coming across as very negative towards the Alto, and I don't understand why? |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 6:11pm
Currently we total nearly 173KG (with about 96 of it at the back end *looks embarrassed*). I think it would be perfectly competitive with far less than that in the boat, but it shows that it's capable of carrying weight, as per the design brief. |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:28pm
I've not got anything against the Alto as a fleet racing boat, I think it is an abuse of PY. I think PY can work very well with comparable boats. Laser vs Supernovae vs streaker vs Solo etc Wayfarer vs Ent RS500 vs Laser 4000 vs ISo 505 vs 470 vs Osprey The more similar the boats in terms of sail configuration, size and speed the better it works. I think stretching the system to try to get serious racing between boats that are too dissimilar messes up the system for everybody. The Alto is too different from everything else, closest comparison might be a Laser 4000. To say it compares with a 400 seems very dubious to me, it is much longer and has a trapeze. But if you are touting PY's in the 920 region, it looks like poor all round performance for a long light boat with 15 years of 'progress' and a trapeze compared to the 400. Against the L4000, it suggests the Alto really ought to be quicker if its basic hull design is anything to bother with, and the swinging pole is getting you no real gain. I can understand that none of this matters if you don't take your racing seriously and just want a boat you enjoy sailing, but I find it hard to square that with a £10k price tag. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong, lots of people buy foul rotomoulds for far too much money and never get value from them, IMHO, it's cheaper than a cruiser I suppose.... But I don't think non-serious club racing needs a £10k price tag. Not if you want a good range of people to sail against. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:37pm
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So how do you feel about the X1 then?
Surely according to your logic that must be an abuse of PY. It's called moving with the times.. build yourself a bridge... |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 7:55pm
I do have reservations about the X1, but river clubs tend to be more fleet-oriented. And there is probably a genuine niche for a river boat bigger than a Merlin that isn't an A rater. I'm not whether we are really moving with the times in terms of taking the 505 and 'improving' it into some thing 20 points slower. It's 90's technology at best. Moving with the times might be thinking of a Rooster 8.674 'ap' for your Solo platform? I suspect the chances of an Alto or an X1 turning up at my club before my knees give out are pretty limited. But if work took me somewhere where they seemed the best people to sail against, I'd probably buy either. |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 8:03pm
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I suspect the that the £9.5K price tag is set because that is as cheap as it can be sold for. That's a lot of glass, carbon and fittings there, and those things are not cheap. Agreed, when second hand ones hit the market they'll get snapped up, but you've got to sell new ones first, that can become second hand ones later. The fact that you just don't see or hear of any for sale perhaps saus something about the happiness of the owners?
Your point about the PY "abuse" is bizarre. A design that performs closer to it's PY when in it's unfavourable conditions is actually doing the right thing. One that goes like stink in a blow, but has it's handicap number kept almost artificially large due to it's dog-poop performance in light winds (results of which are still used for the RYA PY calcs) are the real abusers, and it's these that stimulate the murmurs, finger pointing and moans about "bandits". |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 12 Apr 13 at 8:31pm
Well the reason I use it, is in their way they are two boats chasing the same market, the Alto was born to sail the river Deben, but to be used by folk with less experience of knowing wtf rope does what on a five oh. Originally it was a hiker, it's kite is an RS400 kite, or was to begin with I haven't put up my new one. So, when it's hiking weather we can happily race against RS400's and have been beaten by them, got beaten by my former crew in the last race i did in the Alto last year, it was marginal and he cheated and used his daughter who is a windsurfer so has an inherent feel for a kite as well as being light and the kite new. We also get a good race against a five oh, they'll beat us quite often but we can get them back, so precisely because it is adaptable and can be used across a wide range of conditions that I doubt the X1 will and is excellent value for money when you consider what you pay for a merlin or a five oh, or even a 500. Whatever, I'm rambling again, I kind of see the point your trying to make driven by I'm not sure what, but give them a break, they need to sell every boat they can, they're not RS, or the real bandit villains, they've had some really rough deals at the hand of this crap industry and now they're in better hands, wish them well, be a bit magnanimous. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 13 Apr 13 at 12:07am
The L3k has the same underwater shape, foils, weight and white sail area as a Laser 2, and although the rig is better controlled this doesn't bring much in moderate, displacement windspeeds; it can thus be expected to go at a similar speed. It is bang on the boatspeed:windspeed ratio where symmetric and asymmetric crossover, so which wins around a course will depend on the nature of the course. It is a nicer boat to sail, however (and I liked my L2, but nonetheless). Why do the L3k and L2 have a 4-figure PY? Have you seen the size of the sails? Tiny, and the wetted area is quite large - the pay-off for good initial stability. Why are the sails tiny? Because the boat is narrow and crews are relatively light weight, so there isn't a lot of power available. You could stick much more sail on and use a fat crew and it would go at Fireball speed, but that isn't the design demographic - how many successful girl crews (not helms) do you see in a 'ball these days? The 3k fills a niche for light-weight pairings such as lighter couples (increasingly rare these days!) and teenage-parent combos, as well as two mid-late teens. I think it does that better than any other class which is why I sail one. The V3k isn't much quicker than the L3k sub-planing, but planes appreciably earlier. It is in the F3-4 range where the V3k makes its mark, and can plane down the run using apparent wind to good effect when the L3k is still plodding. The chineless 3k hull shape isn't ideal for top speed, but more for intermediate speeds, which in the real world is quite handy. The fact that D&D were such a high-wind menace to you Grumph, is that at 26 stone they were right at the top end of 3k crew weights; the boat is also very manageable then with its little sails. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 30 Apr 13 at 7:59pm
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Quick update...
Not sailed the Alto for a couple of weeks due to work (GAH!) but the boy and I went out on Sunday morning and had a good time and didn't do too bad (results not up yet on the OSC site). In the afternoon we decided to go and play with the Asymmetric Fleet on a W-L course, just to see what it was like. Wind was blowing plenty, with well over 20kts showing on the anano...anomm.... wind indicator thingy. 1st beat was very good, easily outpacing the 400s and not far off the 800s to the top. I'd guess the beat was about 3/4 mile, and in that I suppose we lost about 10-15 boat lengths on the 49er. Downwind boats were falling over rather a lot, but the Alto still felt supremely stable, absolutely flying along at max-chat with us wiring and hiking hard, using the apparent wind. Got my angles/timing wrong approaching the 1st leeward mark and dropped early, but was able to gybe comfortably without drama even without the kite. Still seriously impressed with this boat - nothing seems to faze it... you just keep going faster but without the ring-tightening (and wallet-shuddering) moments of "OHMYGODWE'REGOINGTODIE,ANDTHISISGOINGTOBEEXPENSIVE" you get with many other performance boats. No idea how we did on handicap yet - hopefully the results will appear tonight. Good times.
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Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 1:30pm
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Many thanks Bootscooter for your unbiased review and updates. I feel it was very fair and would not wish to query or comment on any of your findings. I was interested how even the often overlooked less significant aspects of any design were identified by you. Also thanks to those who appreciated the thorough testing and commented accordingly. As both AlanH and Transient referred to, it was refreshing to read comments and discussion without the usual nitpicking. It was coincidence that I was on holiday when the the review was posted since I seldom log in when on holiday, this especially as perhaps the only negative response out of seventeen who replied might have tempted me to respond. However I read his 'asymmetric' logic on Py's some six months ago and then also chose to ignore it. He would save himself much time, wasted words and a lot of space if he simply said he dislikes the AltO. Thanks again Bootcatcher and forumites. Sailing should be fun whatever class we sail Mike ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 2:13pm
I take it that was aimed at me...? There's nothing to dislike about the Alto from initial impressions, other than there's hardly anyone else sailing them, therefore you have to sail them in PY fleets. P&B- probably one of the largest dinghy companies in the UK not selling their own designs, couldn't get it out of the starting blocks, despite trying- I saw it when Olly was sailing it, it looked nice. Does that say something negative about your boats? No... it just says dinghy racing is a very conservative market place- which is either good or bad depending on your point of view. So sorry if that makes it a bit of catch 22 for anyone with a commercial interest, and again sorry your only early adopters on here are Grumpf and a chap who admits openly he wont spend the money on one, despite praising it from the rafters. But really, I don't think I've actually said I don't like it, have I? I haven't sailed it, I wouldn't know. ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 2:33pm
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Arn, you miss the point. I don't dislike the Alto in itself. I just think it is going to struggle to deliver 'fair' racing at a stable PY. Like the RS400, but more so. But in the RS400 we have enough of a club fleet not to care that PY works increasingly badly for us. Put an Alto fleet in my local club and I'd very seriously consider buying into it. (But to be fair, I don't like the Alto as much as I like 505's)
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Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 2:49pm
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Pondmonkey, I don't know that the comments were aimed at you, but regardless, you're more than welcome to make the short hop over to OSC and come for a sail (I'm hoping to keep hold of it for a little while longer).
Same goes for anyone here - it's the demo boat after all, and I've currently got the keys *teehee*. ------------- |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 3:14pm
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Thanks Bootscooter - if sailing time was not so scarce I'd love to, not that it would be for any other purpose than to see what Grumpf is making all the fuss about! As I said in my post, there's nothing that on paper, on video, on pictures not to like about a simpler asymmetric which squares off to accommodate RTC racing. It's a real dilemma for boat builders/designers - how do they breakthrough the barriers of well functioning class system like here? Most of the people I know who are prepared to buy a new boat, buy into a class as much as they buy that fresh smell of dry hull and crisp sails. A topic for another thread no doubt....
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Posted By: oldarnus
Date Posted: 01 May 13 at 4:31pm
I'm not out to knock the 400. It just happens it was after Roland Marriott at DYC tried to persuade me that I should get a 400 in about 2001 that I decided to play with a modified 505. It was when sailing the 400 against a slight tide in a force2/3 and I was faced with either having to jig towards the mud or zag almost back up river that I decided there had to be a better way. I have to admit to not finding it comfortable or, when tacking, easy to cross the wide-ish boat with narrow gunwales. I was looking for a boat that was kind to crews, especially female ones and it has be said that it is tough at the front. About then Waldringfield SC tried to adopt them. They got up to about 5 or 6, but after a few years die out. It did not suite them or the river. After my long sabbatical from sailing I considered a 505, but for practical reasons sailed a Wayfarer in fleets of 12 to 18 boats and had good one design racing, but I wanted something more exciting. Roger who I sailed with was 16 or 17 stone thus we played with a simple non trapeze asymmetric 505. It was not planned as a new class, and only when, sailing with Geoff, my present 12 stone crew and trapezing in a f6 and with the self-tacking jib, did we realise it should make a wonderful trapeze class. I can fully understand anyone perhaps preferring the 505, assuming they can afford a competitive boat and having enough time to go through the learning apprenticeship and with a the same crew who can devote an equal amount of time. As you know the AltO is a compromise since it gives almost all a 505 offers at half the price and can be sailed by almost anyone! ------------- You don't give up when you know you have a winner! |