Rules 'For Idiots'

   Lets remind ourselves of the definition of mark room...

Mark-Room - Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room.

Which to my mind is exactly the same as saying "mark room includes room to tack if the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside".

It seems clear enough to my simple mind. Are you sure you aren't struggling for more subtlety in the words than is really there? 

I can remember, as a PC member, once doing exactly that and managing to talk ourselves into an interpretation of a rule (forget which one) which was precisely wrong. Fortunately the competetitor wasn't party to the discussion and retired after hearing the evidence and re-reading the rules whilst we were leading ourselves down the garden path!

Edited by JimC

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JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6661	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Rules 'For Idiots' Posted: 08 May 09 at 8:54am
	Lets remind ourselves of the definition of mark room... Mark-Room - Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room. Which to my mind is exactly the same as saying "mark room includes room to tack if the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside". It seems clear enough to my simple mind. Are you sure you aren't struggling for more subtlety in the words than is really there? I can remember, as a PC member, once doing exactly that and managing to talk ourselves into an interpretation of a rule (forget which one) which was precisely wrong. Fortunately the competetitor wasn't party to the discussion and retired after hearing the evidence and re-reading the rules whilst we were leading ourselves down the garden path! Edited by JimC

gordon Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037	Post Options Post Reply Quote gordon Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 11 May 09 at 1:03pm
	Jim C I would agree with you. When a windward boat is overlapped on the inside, of another boat, from the moment one of them enters the zone, the outside boat must give the inside boat mark room. From that moment, markroom includes room to sail to the mark (which limits the leeward boats rights under rule 11) and room at the mark to sail her proper course, including room to tack. As I read the rules, the fact that once inside windward boat passes head to wind rule 18 switches off, and at that moment, but not before, outside boat ceases to have an obligation to give mark room (until she herself passes head to wind at which time a new set of rule 18 obligations arise) does nothing to change, or reduce, the obligation of the outside boat to give mark room whilst boats are still on same tack. If the inside boat infringes rule 13 while passing from head to wind to a closehauled course this will (except in the most exceptional circumstances) be due to the outside boat not giving enough mark room before inside boat passes head to wind. If the answer to the question "Just before the inside boat passes head to wind does she have room to tack" is No then outside boat has infringed. Gordon
	Gordon

Jimbob Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 05 Sep 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 77	Post Options Post Reply Quote Jimbob Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 22 May 09 at 11:16pm
	"1 - If you are approaching a windward mark, to be left to starboard, on starboard tack and there is a boat directly infront of you on the same tack - can he tack at the mark even though you would/could hit him ?. Sometoimes you get a stream of boats following and if the front boat cant then technically the guy at the back of the queue would round first ?." This a very old chestnut and is very simple. Most of the replies so far are complicating the issue. Rule 18 clearly states that it does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. So the moment the leading boat tacks he is on port and has no rights on the starboard boats approaching from behind and must keep clear. The following boats do not have to give him room to keep clear since it was his actions that caused them to gain right of way See Rule 15. The counter manoeuvres for the leading boat in this case are a) to overstand the mark slightly and approach close by so boat(s) behind cannot gain an overlap. At the mark luff up hard to round out of the way of the following boats; or b) as suggested earlier slow up inside the 3 boat lengths to force following boats to go ouside. Option a) is by far the safest option as option b) can lead to pile ups and arguments about overlaps which may involve you even though you may be in the right. I've been there.
	Jimbob