Rules 'For Idiots'
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5472
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 3:01am
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Topic: Rules 'For Idiots'
Posted By: rich96
Subject: Rules 'For Idiots'
Date Posted: 02 May 09 at 9:27am
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Wonder if anyone can helkp me with interpretation of a few rules: 1 - If you are approaching a windward mark, to be left to starboard, on starboard tack and there is a boat directly infront of you on the same tack - can he tack at the mark even though you would/could hit him ?. Sometoimes you get a stream of boats following and if the front boat cant then technically the guy at the back of the queue would round first ?. 2 - When a boat tries to pass to windward on a reach what are the new luffing rules ? 3 - If yoy are passing a boat to leeward what are the new luffing rules. 4 - Can anyone clarify the rule when you're hapily sitting on the start line, waiting for the gun, stationary but on a close hauled course, and someone jumps in beneath you and tries to push you over/up ?
Any help would be great.
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Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 May 09 at 11:26am
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In reply: 1) I believe if the normal manoeuver at that mark is to tack then he is allowed to tack (I could be wrong though). What I always do in this situation is try to approach slightly low so I can luff head to wind forcing the boat astern to go round my transom, then I can tack). 2) You are allowed to luff up to head to wind but must give the boat time to respond (which includes dropping the kite if applicable). 3) You may luff no higher than your proper course 4) If you are sationary and they want to you to head up they must again give you time (and room) to respond. This would include room to bear away to get your boat moving so you can head up. If there is another boat below you they also have to prove that there was room for them to take the gap. I am sure other will chip in with more and perhaps contradict this! ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 02 May 09 at 11:39am
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Issue one, well if your the leading boat get inside 3 boat lengths and slow down, no room inside following boat goes outside....then tack when you need to. It's not all about going fast you know ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 May 09 at 11:47am
Indeed, this is even more effective if you are stuck at the back of a group of boats coming into a leeward mark. Slow down and you can often nip inside the lot of em and gain shed loads of places for very little effort. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 02 May 09 at 5:37pm
You need to add
------------- Wanna learn to Ski - PM me.. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 May 09 at 12:23pm
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Posts: 46
Replies are in italics Gordon Wonder if anyone can helkp me with interpretation of a few rules: 1 - If you are approaching a windward mark, to be left to starboard, on starboard tack and there is a boat directly infront of you on the same tack - can he tack at the mark even though you would/could hit him ?. Sometoimes you get a stream of boats following and if the front boat cant then technically the guy at the back of the queue would round first ?. Rule 18 applies. The boat clear astern must give the boat clear ahead mark room (18.2b) UNTIL EITHER BOAT PASSES HEAD TO WIND. (18.2c). At this point 18.2b ceases to apply and if a new overlap is created then the outside boat must give the inside overlapped boat mark room (18.2a) unless, if the overlap is created from clear astern the outside boat, from the time the overlap begins, is unable to give mark room. When you are clear ahead coming in to a mark where a tack is required you should slow down and force the following boat outside you. 2 - When a boat tries to pass to windward on a reach what are the new luffing rules ? The rules have not changed - the boat overlapped to windward must keep clear. Rule 15 "acquiring right of way" does not apply as leeward boat was already right of way boat when she was clear ahead. Leeward, rightof way boat's actions are limited by rule 16 "change of course". Any luff is a change of course, so leeward boat must give windward boat room to keep clear. Leeward boat has no proper course restriction (rule 17) so may luff as far as head to wind. 3 - If yoy are passing a boat to leeward what are the new luffing rules. When a boat establishes an overlap from clear astern to leeward of another boat she establishes a new right of way. Windward boat must keep clear (rule 11) and leeward boat must initially give her room to keep clear (rule 15). Any change of course by leeward boat must give windward boat room to keep clear (rule 16.1). Leeward boat has established an overlap to leeeward from clear asternShe is therefore not allowed to sail above HER proper course, which may be a different course from the proper course of the windward boat. 4 - Can anyone clarify the rule when you're hapily sitting on the start line, waiting for the gun, stationary but on a close hauled course, and someone jumps in beneath you and tries to push you over/up ? The answer is very similar. When a boat establishes an overlap from clear astern to leeward of another boat she establishes a new right of way. Windward boat must keep clear (rule 11) and leeward boat must initially give her room to keep clear (rule 15). As you are stationary, this includes room to accelerate in order to attain sufficient speed to have steerage way. This may mean that you have to sail above the line!. Any change of course by leeward boat must give windward boat room to keep clear (rule 16.1). Leeward boat has established an overlap to leeeward from clear astern. She is therefore not allowed to sail above HER proper course, which may be a different course from the proper course of the windward boat (rule 17).However, before the starting signal a boat has no proper course, so she may luff you head to wind. However, as soon as the gun goes leeward boat must return to her proper course (which would be close-hauled if the start was a normal windward start)------------- Gordon |
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 03 May 09 at 12:53pm
As I said I stand to be corrected on 1 and I was so use the method i stated which is to pop up head to wind forcing the boat behind you to go below you. As for 4, I always thought you could not luff above close hauled prior to the start but could luff to head to wind after it. Interesting interpretation. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 03 May 09 at 1:18pm
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Jeffers, 1.When arriving at a mark where clear ahead boat has to tack to round mark - the clear ahead boat is entitled to mark room until she PASSES head to wind. Luffing head to wind (but no further) to oblige following, clear astern, boat to go outside you is a legitimate tactic. 2.Definition of proper course states "a boat has no proper course before her starting signal". So rule 17 does not restrict a boat before the starting signal Even though the overlap was established from clear astern she may sail up to, but not beyond head to wind, as long as she gives windward boat room to keep clear. As soon as starting signal is given, if overlap was established from clear astern, even before starting signal, then leeward boat is restricted by rule 17 and must not sail above her proper course. It is a frequent source of embarrasement for team racing umpires as boats sail away from start line, because they may not have established, often sometime before the start (30 secs is a long time in team racing), whether leeward boat is restricted by rule 17. By the way, a day out on an umpires boat is a fantastic way to improve your practical knowledge of the rules. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 05 May 09 at 8:12am
I watched Steve Cockrill do this to great effect at the RS300 nats in Filey. In fact it was so impressive to watch I nearly decided to applaud. Thing is the risk is actually quite low, the guys on the outside of the bunch ahead are so far from the mark they usually couldn't hit you even if they tried. They can shout 'no water' till their purple in the face but if the're 4 boat lengths downwind of the mark..... ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: mtoogood
Date Posted: 05 May 09 at 9:38am
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i am really struggling with the replies to issue 1, it came up this weekend when i was keelboat sailing on a boat with a very long counter, ie swings very wide when tacking. it exaggerated a problem to which (even after studying the rules) i cant see an answer. the problem is, 2 boats approaching the starboard rounding windward mark. inside boat has the overlap at 3 boat lengths and calls for water. outside boat correctly gives inside boat water to tack, ie let inside boat go head to wind, but will not give windward/inside boat room to set sails on port tack and round mark. if you look at rule 18.2 b the moment tack is complete (ie head to wind) the obligation to give room is removed. so for a keeboat with big counter they physically cant get the boat onto the new tack without the outside boat bearing off, which they have no obligation to do now that the inside boat has tacked. any ideas? ------------- solent scow sailor |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 05 May 09 at 11:00am
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Mtoogood In the situation you set out inside boat is overlapped to windward. If you read the definition of mark room then when a boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside then mark room includes room to tack. Outside boat must give sufficient room for inside boat to tack. This raises a more general point. The Definitions are probably the most important part, and the most neglected, part of the rules. Whenever a word in a rule is in italics this refers to a definition. The definition forms part of the rule. It is worth spending a bit of time reading and making sense of what the definitions say. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 06 May 09 at 2:29am
Fine so far
I can't picture this. If IW has come up to pass head to wind, from a position to windward of OL, then OL will be somewhere astern of IW. How can OL affect IW's ability to 'set sails on port tack'? But it doesn't matter. A tack is not 'complete' until the boat has borne away onto a close hauled course. When a boat passes head to wind she commences her tack (or so we would have said under the pre-1995 rules: the RRS no longer use the defined term 'tacking', and probably in the simple english usage a boat is 'tacking' all the way from close hauled on the old tack to close hauled on the new tack). Rule 18.2(c) switches off a boat's rule 18.2(b) entitlements to mark-room when either boat passes head to wind, leaving rule 18.2(a) entitlement to whoever is the inside boat intact. But at a windward mark, with two boats initially on same tack, rule 18.1(b) switches off rule 18 in its entirity when one boat passes head to wind so that 'boats [are] on opposite tacks [and] the hproper course for one, but not both is to tack.' So all mark-room entitlements disappear when IW passes head to wind.
I still don't get the geometry: if OL has kept clear during IW's big stern-swing to come up to head to wind, surely it is going to be very difficult for OL to still be hooked up overlapped outside IW's stern so as to be in the way as IW bears away? But again it doesn't matter: You are quite correct: OL is now starboard tack, owing no mark-room to IW now on port: if IW bears away and contacts OL or causes OL to change course to avoid contact with IW, then IW breaks rule 10 and probably rule 13. Tactically, I suppose IW could play it like this: Wait till she was at the mark before changing course. Change course towards the wind as fast as she likes (protected by her rule 18.5 exoneration from rule 16) so that there is risk of contact with OL, then curtail her course-change, so as to avoid contact with OL and protest OL for not giving her mark-room, all before IW passes head to wind. Absent other boats outside, OL should then bear away to get well clear and take her penalty turns, making room for IW to tack. If IW passes head to wind and makes contact, she is in dire peril: she just might claim that OL failing to give her mark-room compelled her, several seconds later once she had passed head to wind, to fail to keep clear of OL, and to contact OL, but this would be massively relying on charity from the protest committee. Bottom line is that OL may well be able to get the close hook-up and exert control from the leeward position, unless IW is very neat and tidy with her seamanship. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 06 May 09 at 8:36am
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K.I.S.S. A boat is tacking (in so far as rule 13 "while tacking" applies) from the time she passes head to wind until she is on a close hauled course. During this time an inside overlapped boat who is entitled to mark-room is, by the definition of mark-room, still entitled to room. This entitlement does not disappear when 18.2b switches off. If there is contact during the time that inside windward boat is subject to rule 13 then outside boat has failed to give mark room and inside boat is exonerated under 18.5a (but not from breaking rule 14 if this was an issue). Inside windward boat, however, does not have mark room to bear away below close-hauled, nor to sail her proper course at the mark whilst outside leeward boat remains on starboard. But as boats are now sailing away from each other this should not be an issue. As soon as outside leeward boat passes head to wind she must keep clear (rule 13) and, as she is now on the same tack as inside boat, must give mark room under 18.2a. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: mtoogood
Date Posted: 06 May 09 at 7:05pm
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thanks gordon - admirably simple and i am sure correct! ------------- solent scow sailor |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 07 May 09 at 4:09am
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I have to disagree with you Gordon. There is no longer any express entitlement to room to tack as part of rounding a mark. The new definition of mark-room just tells us when mark-room does not include room to tack. At a windward mark, with two boats initially on same tack, rule 18.1(b) switches off rule 18 in its entirity when one boat passes head to wind so that 'boats [are] on opposite tacks [and] the proper course for one, but not both is to tack.' So all mark-room entitlements disappear when one of the two boats passes head to wind. See Case 50, last paragraph: "If A were to pass head to wind, then at that moment all parts of rule 18 would cease to apply because the boats would be on opposite tacks (see rule 18.1(b))."
Disagree: once inside passes head to wind the whole of rule 18 is off
Agree rule 18.5 never switches rule 14 off.
Agree, rule 18 is back ON from when she passes head to wind.
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Posted By: ColPrice2002
Date Posted: 07 May 09 at 9:05am
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Consider the situation as if the mark were not there:- If IW heads up to close hauled, then OW heads up to close hauled as well, then IF IW cannot tack because the stern swing would hit OW, then OW has not given IW sufficient time or space to keep clear (Rule 16). Otherwise, IW could be put in the impossible position of a) not being able to tack because of OW and b) [possibly] sailing a lower close hauled course. It isn't possible to establish an overlap from leeward without allowing the give-way boat to keep clear (Rule 17). Colin |
Posted By: tack'ho
Date Posted: 07 May 09 at 12:15pm
mmmmmm....really? ------------- I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e! |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 07 May 09 at 2:40pm
| Location: Australia |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 07 May 09 at 5:57pm
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Brass, To avoid confusing sailors by our arguments I suggest we do what most judges do when they have different interpretations - we adjourn to a quiet corner of the bar, discuss the matter and come back with a considered answer. I will contact you directly, and promise to return to this thread with a considered answer One point, you seem to be quoting a Case, but it is not Case 50 in my Case book - could you check the reference. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 May 09 at 12:54am
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I do apologise: it's Case 15, not Case 50. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 May 09 at 8:54am
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Lets remind ourselves of the definition of mark room...
Mark-Room - Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room. Which to my mind is exactly the same as saying "mark room includes room to tack if the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside". It seems clear enough to my simple mind. Are you sure you aren't struggling for more subtlety in the words than is really there? I can remember, as a PC member, once doing exactly that and managing to talk ourselves into an interpretation of a rule (forget which one) which was precisely wrong. Fortunately the competetitor wasn't party to the discussion and retired after hearing the evidence and re-reading the rules whilst we were leading ourselves down the garden path! |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 May 09 at 1:03pm
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Jim C I would agree with you. When a windward boat is overlapped on the
inside, of another boat, from the moment one of them enters the zone,
the outside boat must give the inside boat mark room. From that moment,
markroom includes room to sail to the mark (which limits the leeward
boats rights under rule 11) and room at the mark to sail her proper
course, including room to tack. As I read the rules, the fact that once inside windward boat passes head to wind rule 18 switches off, and at that moment, but not before, outside boat ceases to have an obligation to give mark room (until she herself passes head to wind at which time a new set of rule 18 obligations arise) does nothing to change, or reduce, the obligation of the outside boat to give mark room whilst boats are still on same tack. If the inside boat infringes rule 13 while passing from head to wind to a closehauled course this will (except in the most exceptional circumstances) be due to the outside boat not giving enough mark room before inside boat passes head to wind. If the answer to the question "Just before the inside boat passes head to wind does she have room to tack" is No then outside boat has infringed. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Jimbob
Date Posted: 22 May 09 at 11:16pm
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"1 - If you are approaching a windward mark, to be left to starboard, on starboard tack and there is a boat directly infront of you on the same tack - can he tack at the mark even though you would/could hit him ?. Sometoimes you get a stream of boats following and if the front boat cant then technically the guy at the back of the queue would round first ?."
This a very old chestnut and is very simple. Most of the replies so far are complicating the issue. Rule 18 clearly states that it does not apply between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward. So the moment the leading boat tacks he is on port and has no rights on the starboard boats approaching from behind and must keep clear. The following boats do not have to give him room to keep clear since it was his actions that caused them to gain right of way See Rule 15. The counter manoeuvres for the leading boat in this case are a) to overstand the mark slightly and approach close by so boat(s) behind cannot gain an overlap. At the mark luff up hard to round out of the way of the following boats; or b) as suggested earlier slow up inside the 3 boat lengths to force following boats to go ouside. Option a) is by far the safest option as option b) can lead to pile ups and arguments about overlaps which may involve you even though you may be in the right. I've been there. ------------- Jimbob |