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davidyacht View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by davidyacht

holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course?


"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."


Am a being a little naive in thinking that mark room is a boat width (and boom if appropriate) band and that on passing the mark would either follow the hardened up starboard tack course, or an immediate tack onto port (allowing for tide) ... both of which a reasonable case could be made for proper course (ignoring other boats).   

Surely the PC would consider that the RS200 had gone out of the Mark Room "track" if he delayed his tack sufficiently for the Laser to complete its tack without hitting the RS200 or the mark?  



 
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by jeffers

the leeward boat is irrelevant in terms of a proper course discussion as Proper Course is defined as in the absence of other boats.....

No, 

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. ... 

With respect to the Laser, the 200's proper course is the one she would sail in the absence of the Laser, but not in the absence of another boat.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by davidyacht

holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course?


"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."


Am a being a little naive in thinking that mark room is a boat width (and boom if appropriate) band and that on passing the mark would either follow the hardened up starboard tack course, or an immediate tack onto port (allowing for tide) ... both of which a reasonable case could be made for proper course (ignoring other boats).   

Surely the PC would consider that the RS200 had gone out of the Mark Room "track" if he delayed his tack sufficiently for the Laser to complete its tack without hitting the RS200 or the mark?  

In the light conditions described your 'beam plus boom' formula might be about right but in stronger conditions it might be a boat length or more (Case 21).

And the mark-room is room to 'round the mark' or 'around the mark', it does not include a 'corridor' away from the mark, once the boat entitled to mark-room has left the mark [astern], that is, once her course is no longer affected by the mark.

What the 200 has, in this case, once she has left the mark, and become overlapped outside L, is room to sail her proper course [while boats remain overlapped and rule 18 continues to apply] (rule 18.2( c )(2)).  This entitlement is switched on by being entitled to mark-room and becoming overlapped outside, but does not depend on sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, and is additional to that mark-room.

What Jim is driving at is that a boat's proper course is the course she [subjectively] would sail.  That means that as long as she can present a reasonable argument for sailing a particular course, which is not effectively argued against by another party in a protest, the protest committee should take her word for it.

Mark-room does not include room to tack in this case because 200 is overlapped outside, not inside L (Definition:  Mark-room last sentence).

In any case, even when mark-room includes room to tack, this is effectively limited to her change of course until the boat is head to wind:  once past head to wind, the boat's entitlement to mark-room of any kind (and her entitlement to room under rule 18.2( c )(2)) shuts off because rule 18 in its entirety ceases to apply.

So effectively, all a boat gets out of an entitlement to room to tack as part of mark-room is room for her stern to kick out in a tack.

In a scenario as described it would be extraordinary for L to rely on a protest solely about rule 16:  she would be crazy if her protest wasn't primarily based on rule 13.

And while 200 has two defences against rule 16 (that she didn't fail to give room to keep clear at all, because L tacked away and there wasn't contact, AND that, if she did break rule 16, she is exonerated under rule 21), she hasn't a feather to fly with against rule 13.


Edited by Brass - 05 Apr 16 at 1:42pm
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 2:01pm
Thanks Brass I think I have learnt something; seems to me that if the 200 had exercised better coursecraft he could have protected his position much better ... had he tacked closer to the mark he would only have encourage the transom to spin out ... but would not have presented the side of the boat to be "T-boned" in a Port and Starboard.  

Even if I were in my rights to delay the tack, I think I would be hesitant to put one in with a boat close behind, unless I felt 100% confident to pull the tack off and clear him.
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Brass

AND that, if she did break rule 16, she is exonerated under rule 21), she hasn't a feather to fly with against rule 13.


21 gives that a boat entitled to room shall be exonerated from infringements of rules in Section A + 15&16.

As rule 13 is a Section A rule could 200 be exonerated if proper course were established?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 8:40pm
No, because once you've passed head to wind mark room is gone, and RRS13 only starts to apply after passing head to wind.
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by davidyacht

Thanks Brass I think I have learnt something; seems to me that if the 200 had exercised better coursecraft he could have protected his position much better ... had he tacked closer to the mark he would only have encourage the transom to spin out ... but would not have presented the side of the boat to be "T-boned" in a Port and Starboard.  

Even if I were in my rights to delay the tack, I think I would be hesitant to put one in with a boat close behind, unless I felt 100% confident to pull the tack off and clear him.


Standard protection is to luff to head to wind alongside the mark, and make the trailing boat overlapped outside you. Once overlapped, mark room includes room to tack. 

Harder in current/tide though. 
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 11:11am
In the Yawl my crew physically pulls in the boom so that the door is firmly shut.  Though a good rounding and a bit of windward heel will usually do the trick.  
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Posts: 8 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sundowner6959 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:16am
Here's another query about tacking in the zone. . . . 
Two boats on opposite tacks approach the windward mark which they are rounding to port. Boat P, on port, tacks below boat S which is approaching on starboard. Boat P's tack is clean and boat S does not have to take any avoiding action. Boat P who cannot lay the mark without luffing shoots the mark and rounds cleanly but Boat S's boom touched Boat P's rigging when this manoeuvre is carried out. 

Should boat S have given more room for P to round the mark or did boat P infringe the rules by tacking below S and then shooting the mark.

This all happened within two boat lengths of the mark.


 
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:25am
Did P force S to sail above close hauled?
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