Tacking in zone
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Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Topic: Tacking in zone
Posted By: piglet
Subject: Tacking in zone
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 6:00am
Club handicap racing, starting from a club line, short starboard fetch to Mark 1 leaving Mark 1 to starboard, then beat to Mark 2.
200 clear ahead of Laser at start, clear ahead at 3 BL to M1 and clear ahead as she passes tight to M1.
200 now tacks onto port at about 1BL after the mark as was her intended course.
Laser makes a better mark exit and has a slightly higher lane and therefore is forced to tack with 200 to avoid a collision.
The discussion after centred on room vs tacking in another boats water.
18.2.c.2 seems to give 200 rights to her proper course as far as head to wind, while 16.1 seems to prohibit 200 from infringing Laser.
Advice much appreciated.
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Replies:
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 7:26am
Going through rule 18.
The 200 is entitled to Mark Room as per rule 18.2b as she is clear ahead.
As soon as she passed head to wind her right to Mark Room ceases as per 18.2c plus she was no longer at the Mark (as you stated she was 1BL past the mark).
Mark room only includes room to tack is the boat is to windward, overlapped and inside at the mark (as per the definition of Mark Room). So she did not have the room to tack as part of the Mark Room obligations.
It would hinge on 3 things for me were I on a PC:
1) What was the separation between the 2 boats
2) Has the 200 completed her tack before the Laser started her mark rounding?
if so:
3) Would the Laser have passed clear astern had she not altered course (i.e. rounded the mark)
My gut feeling is that the boats were close, the 200 slid off wide due to a poor rounding and tacked but the Laser was already sailing higher so the 200 would get pinged.
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 7:36am
200 reached the zone clear ahead of L on the same tack. - L is required to keep clear of 200 (rule 12); and
- L is required thereafter to give 200 mark-room (rule 18.2( b )).
As 200 luffs into her tack, L will become overlapped inside, (if she was not already), and then- L continues to be required to keep clear of 200, but now under rule 11;
- L continues to be required to give 200 mark-room, (but if 200 has left the mark astern without interference from L, then L has given 200 all the mark-room she needs;
- L is required to give 200 room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2( c )(2)), and will continue to be required to give that room while they remain overlapped [and rule 18 continues to apply].
IF 200's proper course is to tack immediately after the mark, then as she luffs up to head to wind, she is sailing within the room to which she is entitled, and shall be exonerated if she breaks rule 16 (but not rule 14) (rule 21).
Once 200 passes head to wind, boats cease to be overlapped, and the proper course for one (L) but not both is to tack, so: - rule 18 ceases to apply, rule 13 (While Tacking) applies, and 200 is required to keep clear of L;
- L has acquired right of way because of 200's actions, so is not required by rule 15 to initially give 200 room to keep clear; BUT
- if L changes course after 200 passes head to wind, L is required, by rule 16.1 to give 200 room to keep clear.
If, in a protest hearing, 200 could not satisfy the protest committee that her proper course was to tack where she did, she would not be sailing within the room to which she was entitled, and would not be exonerated if she broke rule 16, and until she reached head to wind she would simply be a leeward (rught of way) boat luffing.
In summary: - 200 is entitled to room to sail her proper course, but that entitlement ceases when she passes head to wind; and
- rule 16.1 does not protect L from a hard luff from 200, but rule 14 might.
I agree with Jeffers that this looks like a poor rounding by 200, followed by dead set tacking into the Laser. To get off the hook 200 is going to have to prove: - it WAS her proper course to tack at the mark;
- L failed to keep clear, or give 200 room to sail her proper course before 200 passed head to wind;
- if 200 failed to keep clear of L after she passed head to wind, she was compelled to break the rule by L's prior breach of a rule.
We really need to know: was there contact? where on the boats and at what attitude?
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 8:20am
In answer to Jeffers point about separation, opinion may be divided,
But
Let's assume that L was not clear of the mark when 200 started her tack and L was close enough to 200 that an overlap was created as soon as 200 started to luff.
Add to this there was slight tide running against the boats as they headed for M1, and wind was fairly light. This was a compounding factor in 200's decision of when to tack, tacking on the mark would have risked mark contact.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 9:16am
Was there contact?
If so: - did contact occur before or after 200 passed head to wind?
- did contact cause damage or injury?
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 9:36am
As there was conjecture over the separation it will come down to who can convince the PC their version was correct (aka 'lie best' in the protest room as someone put it in a recent rules evening we had).
Unless of course there was a witness.....
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:27am
Not very smart course setting, starboard hand first mark is probably going to lead to disquiet.
I guess that when I round a mark to starboard from a fetch to a beat with someone close behind I am looking to do a very tidy luff and tack. My guess is that RS200 was trying to prevent a possible overlap, which prevented a good wide in - tight out rounding (not allowed in a "mark room" situation now I know).
I shall follow the thread with interest, but I would have thought that if the RS200 misses the opportunity to do a tidy luff and snappy tack in the mark room lane, it will prove best to keep on the same tack whilst looking over his shoulder and postpone tacking until the Laser puts his helm down. A bit of windward heel and dirty air from the 200 would have encouraged the Laser to either bear off behind or tack ASAP.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:48am
Originally posted by jeffers
(aka 'lie best' in the protest room as someone put it in a recent rules evening we had). |
If the PC finds someone is deliberately lying in a hearing then a further Rule 69 hearing would be appropriate.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by jeffers
(aka 'lie best' in the protest room as someone put it in a recent rules evening we had). |
If the PC finds someone is deliberately lying in a hearing then a further Rule 69 hearing would be appropriate. |
Is it a lie if they believe it to be true? Good luck proving that and proving any deliberate attempt to deceive....
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
My guess is that RS200 was trying to prevent a possible overlap, which prevented a good wide in - tight out rounding DIV] |
Good assessment, there was also a 2nd 200 inches to leeward of the 1st 200 applying pressure and sucking the air out of the rig.
Brass, there was no boat contact.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by jeffers
...proving any deliberate attempt to deceive... |
Whatever the chances of proving it the point should be made that lying or even massaging the truth in Protest room is unsporting, indeed deliberate cheating, and gross misconduct, and people shouldn't be casual talking about it.
I must say though, maybe I've been lucky, but I've never been involved with a protest hearing where I suspected dishonesty (even when I lost). Its always seemed to me, that, however different peoples viewpoints, they could be reconciled to a reasonable version of events. However I've only really been involved with youth and club level hearings. I fear the experience of the average IJ at certain styles of International event might be different.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:06pm
Rather than talking about parties lying (and I suggest that the original reference was flippant and silly), I suggest we should bear in mind RRS Appendix M, Preamble
In a protest or redress hearing, the protest committee ... should recognize that honest testimony can vary, and even be in conflict, as a result of different observations and recollections
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by piglet
Originally posted by davidyacht
My guess is that RS200 was trying to prevent a possible overlap, which prevented a good wide in - tight out rounding DIV] |
Good assessment, there was also a 2nd 200 inches to leeward of the 1st 200 applying pressure and sucking the air out of the rig.
Brass, there was no boat contact. |
So pretty good evidence that tacking was 200's proper course.
So the 200 was right of way boat, entitled to room to sail her proper course (that is, luff into her tack), and exoneration if she broke rule 16 while doing so, until she passed head to wind.
Who says who broke what rule?
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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 04 Apr 16 at 11:36pm
This is a common situation in team and match racing. The lead boat thinks they can tack but forgets that the pivot point is the centreboard. This kicks the stern out in front of the following boat.
This effect seems to be exaggerated when the boats are going slowly, or light winds.
We spent most of Sunday afternoon practicing this in our team racing drills.
Leading into a starboard rounding windward mark is not as easy as most think, if the situation played out as usual the 200 would be in the wrong, though it is easy to push this if you are the following boat.
Andy
------------- Andy Mck
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 10:41am
Originally posted by Brass
Who says who broke what rule?
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Laser squarked at 200 for 'tacking in her water' (16.1?) 200 believed mark room entitled tacking onto proper course. No damage or official protest but matter needed clarification.
Andy, Excellent point about stern kicking out.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 11:07am
OK, 'tacking in her water' is the button-up boots way of saying that a boat while tacking, that is having passed head to wind and not yet reached a close hauled course, failed to keep clear, as required by rule 13.
As I said before, given that 200's proper course was to tack, she was entitled to room to sail her proper course (rule 18.2( c )(2)), and while doing so was exonerated is she failed to give L room to keep clear under rule 21.
Once 200 passed head to wind rule 13 began to apply and she was required to keep clear of L.
If L needed to change course to avoid 200 then 200 broke rule 13.
The rule 21 exoneration is really just a bonus for 200: this is probably best looked at as simply a boat clear ahead and a little to leeward or just on the line of the astern boat having enough space to tack without breaking rule 13 (or when tacking from starboard onto port, then rule 10).
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by piglet
Add to this there was slight tide running against the boats as they headed for M1, and wind was fairly light. This was a compounding factor in 200's decision of when to tack, tacking on the mark would have risked mark contact. |
Surely if the Laser which had been forced to tack managed to fit between the RS200 and the mark without hitting either, the RS200 would find it quite hard to prove that he was sailing a proper course?
Correct me if I am wrong but I would have thought that a proper course was either to tack immediately after passing the mark, or carrying on on the same tack ... holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:15pm
Tacking away from the other 200 close to leeward would have been a proper course for 200.
200's proper course is irrelevant once she passes head to wind and rule 13 applies.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:16pm
the leeward boat is irrelevant in terms of a proper course discussion as Proper Course is defined as in the absence of other boats.....
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course? |
"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:01pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by davidyacht
holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course? |
"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."
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Am a being a little naive in thinking that mark room is a boat width (and boom if appropriate) band and that on passing the mark would either follow the hardened up starboard tack course, or an immediate tack onto port (allowing for tide) ... both of which a reasonable case could be made for proper course (ignoring other boats).
Surely the PC would consider that the RS200 had gone out of the Mark Room "track" if he delayed his tack sufficiently for the Laser to complete its tack without hitting the RS200 or the mark?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:04pm
Originally posted by jeffers
the leeward boat is irrelevant in terms of a proper course discussion as Proper Course is defined as in the absence of other boats..... |
No,
Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. ...
With respect to the Laser, the 200's proper course is the one she would sail in the absence of the Laser, but not in the absence of another boat.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 1:37pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by davidyacht
holding on leaving enough room for a boat to fit in between you and the mark would surely be stretching the credibility of what was a proper course? |
"I was going to sail on a bit further, but the wind headed and I tacked on it/ I changed my mind/the crew pointed out that the wind looked better on the left/all sorts of other possibilities."
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Am a being a little naive in thinking that mark room is a boat width (and boom if appropriate) band and that on passing the mark would either follow the hardened up starboard tack course, or an immediate tack onto port (allowing for tide) ... both of which a reasonable case could be made for proper course (ignoring other boats).
Surely the PC would consider that the RS200 had gone out of the Mark Room "track" if he delayed his tack sufficiently for the Laser to complete its tack without hitting the RS200 or the mark? |
In the light conditions described your 'beam plus boom' formula might be about right but in stronger conditions it might be a boat length or more (Case 21).
And the mark-room is room to 'round the mark' or 'around the mark', it does not include a 'corridor' away from the mark, once the boat entitled to mark-room has left the mark [astern], that is, once her course is no longer affected by the mark.
What the 200 has, in this case, once she has left the mark, and become overlapped outside L, is room to sail her proper course [while boats remain overlapped and rule 18 continues to apply] (rule 18.2( c )(2)). This entitlement is switched on by being entitled to mark-room and becoming overlapped outside, but does not depend on sailing within the mark-room to which she is entitled, and is additional to that mark-room.
What Jim is driving at is that a boat's proper course is the course she [subjectively] would sail. That means that as long as she can present a reasonable argument for sailing a particular course, which is not effectively argued against by another party in a protest, the protest committee should take her word for it.
Mark-room does not include room to tack in this case because 200 is overlapped outside, not inside L (Definition: Mark-room last sentence).
In any case, even when mark-room includes room to tack, this is effectively limited to her change of course until the boat is head to wind: once past head to wind, the boat's entitlement to mark-room of any kind (and her entitlement to room under rule 18.2( c )(2)) shuts off because rule 18 in its entirety ceases to apply.
So effectively, all a boat gets out of an entitlement to room to tack as part of mark-room is room for her stern to kick out in a tack.
In a scenario as described it would be extraordinary for L to rely on a protest solely about rule 16: she would be crazy if her protest wasn't primarily based on rule 13.
And while 200 has two defences against rule 16 (that she didn't fail to give room to keep clear at all, because L tacked away and there wasn't contact, AND that, if she did break rule 16, she is exonerated under rule 21), she hasn't a feather to fly with against rule 13.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 2:01pm
Thanks Brass I think I have learnt something; seems to me that if the 200 had exercised better coursecraft he could have protected his position much better ... had he tacked closer to the mark he would only have encourage the transom to spin out ... but would not have presented the side of the boat to be "T-boned" in a Port and Starboard.
Even if I were in my rights to delay the tack, I think I would be hesitant to put one in with a boat close behind, unless I felt 100% confident to pull the tack off and clear him.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 8:01pm
Originally posted by Brass
AND that, if she did break rule 16, she is exonerated under rule 21), she hasn't a feather to fly with against rule 13.
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21 gives that a boat entitled to room shall be exonerated from infringements of rules in Section A + 15&16.
As rule 13 is a Section A rule could 200 be exonerated if proper course were established?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 8:40pm
No, because once you've passed head to wind mark room is gone, and RRS13 only starts to apply after passing head to wind.
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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 05 Apr 16 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by davidyacht
Thanks Brass I think I have learnt something; seems to me that if the 200 had exercised better coursecraft he could have protected his position much better ... had he tacked closer to the mark he would only have encourage the transom to spin out ... but would not have presented the side of the boat to be "T-boned" in a Port and Starboard.
Even if I were in my rights to delay the tack, I think I would be hesitant to put one in with a boat close behind, unless I felt 100% confident to pull the tack off and clear him. |
Standard protection is to luff to head to wind alongside the mark, and make the trailing boat overlapped outside you. Once overlapped, mark room includes room to tack.
Harder in current/tide though.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 06 Apr 16 at 11:11am
In the Yawl my crew physically pulls in the boom so that the door is firmly shut. Though a good rounding and a bit of windward heel will usually do the trick.
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: sundowner6959
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:16am
Here's another query about tacking in the zone. . . . Two boats on opposite tacks approach the windward mark which they are rounding to port. Boat P, on port, tacks below boat S which is approaching on starboard. Boat P's tack is clean and boat S does not have to take any avoiding action. Boat P who cannot lay the mark without luffing shoots the mark and rounds cleanly but Boat S's boom touched Boat P's rigging when this manoeuvre is carried out.
Should boat S have given more room for P to round the mark or did boat P infringe the rules by tacking below S and then shooting the mark.
This all happened within two boat lengths of the mark.
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:25am
Did P force S to sail above close hauled?
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Posted By: sundowner6959
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:29am
Yes - when shooting the mark only. The tack below was clean and both boats sailed for a few moments on starboard before P luffed to shoot the mark.
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Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 10:49am
Don't think S was obliged to go above close hauled for P. Not sure if that would be 11 or 18, no RRS book to hand.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 11:06am
Not altogether sure about the fine detail of this one.
S, as windward boat, failed to keep clear of P as Leeward boat. RRS11.
If S had to luff above close hauled to keep clear then P broke 18.3. If S didn't luff above close hauled but should have done then I'm not sure that P broke 18.3.
I don't think any of the exoneration rules apply to S because S was not entitled to room of any kind and wasn't ROW boat. Could be wrong about that.
So I think S is penalised for RRS11, and if S actually did luff above close hauled then P is penalised under RRS 18.3. So quite possibly both DSQ.
I'm a bit unhappy about saying that if S didn't luff but should have done then P didn't break a rule, but the trend these days is that you should always keep clear and protest rather than make contact, and that's a pretty good principle.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 11:48am
The rule is pretty clear. 18.3 if P forced S to go above close hauled. Plus remember that as P gained RoW through her tack she MUST give S room to keep clear. S is not require to anticipate that P will tack underneath her and P does not gain Mark Room rights as she tacked in the zone.
As this took place in the Zone my view would that it would be unlikely that P could give S the required room to keep clear in all but the lightest of conditions (rule 15).
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by sundowner6959
Here's another query about tacking in the zone. . . . Two boats on opposite tacks approach the windward mark which they are rounding to port. Boat P, on port, tacks below boat S which is approaching on starboard. Boat P's tack is clean and boat S does not have to take any avoiding action. Boat P who cannot lay the mark without luffing shoots the mark and rounds cleanly but Boat S's boom touched Boat P's rigging when this manoeuvre is carried out.
Should boat S have given more room for P to round the mark or did boat P infringe the rules by tacking below S and then shooting the mark.
This all happened within two boat lengths of the mark. |
Here's what I think you described.
In this case, B has never sailed above close hauled, both boats have passed the mark, so Y cannot be said to have prevented B from passing the mark, so Y has not broken rule 18.3. B, to windward does not keep clear of Y and breaks rule 11 and probably rule 14.
Try this:
Here, I don't think anyone would dispute that Y prevents B from passing the mark. Y breaks rule 18.3
Now this:
There is contact with B's boom @5.
Boats have not 'passed' the mark, therefore B is, at least' attempting to 'pass' the mark. Y shall not 'prevent' B from passing the mark.
Y's shrouds, which make contact with B's boom, at least obstruct B from passing the mark. I think this has to be the applicable meaning given to 'prevent' in rule 18.3.
There is very scant discussion of the 'prevent' obligation in the commentary books.
One way of looking at the 'prevent' part of rule 18.2( a ) is to consider it the 'compliment' of the 'cause to sail above close hauled' part: where the fetching boat needs to sail above close hauled to avoid contact, but doesn't, isn't that where 'prevents' kicks in?
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Posted By: sundowner6959
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 1:01pm
The bottom graphic is how I saw it happen.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 1:23pm
Gosh Brass, you're interpreting 'prevent' very differently from me. I was thinking that it meant forcing the other boat the wrong side of the mark.
Given situation 3 then, where do you see penalties?
The way I read it B is not ROW or entitled to mark room under RRS14. Depending on the speed of boats Jeffers may very well be right and B is entitled to room under RRS15, in which case she's exonerated for RRS11.
B is not entitled to room under a section C rule so can't be exonerated under RRS21.
I'm inclined to say that Jeffers is right about room, that Y didn't give B room under RRS15/16, and so penalise Y and exonerate B.
However if B had luffed up to avoid Y there would be no complication at all, and Y would clearly be penalised, so there's a moral there!
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 1:50pm
Sometimes it pays to luff up above close hauled to prove that you felt that a collision was inevitable and you had to take avoiding action and sail above close hauled. Slam dunk case if that had happened in my eyes under 18.3 (as long as B was not way above the layline of course).
Are we assuming B is effectively on the lay line though as the illustrations show B to be above it (this is why judging a layline accurately is important)?
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: sundowner6959
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 2:57pm
The race was on an inland loch with the wind flicking through 30 degrees so whether B was fetching or on the layline is difficult to determine but I would assume he was above the layline.
If Y had not tacked below B but had been abreast and on the same starboard tack and on the layline within 2 boat lengths and the wind shifted 15 deg.(header) would Y not be entitled to shoot the mark with B giving room?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 3:36pm
If the boats were overlapped and on the same tack when they reached the *THREE* boat lengths zone then the inside boat is entitled to mark room. That includes room to shoot the mark if needed, but not to tack or go past head to wind.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by sundowner6959
The race was on an inland loch with the wind flicking through 30 degrees so whether B was fetching or on the layline is difficult to determine but I would assume he was above the layline.
If Y had not tacked below B but had been abreast and on the same starboard tack and on the layline within 2 boat lengths and the wind shifted 15 deg.(header) would Y not be entitled to shoot the mark with B giving room? |
You cannot assume anything. Whether the wind shifted or not would be a matter for the PC to determine in their 'facts found' as would whether or not B was (far enough) above the layline or not.
Breaking it down. Rule 18 'switches on' when Y reaches the zone at point 1. As they are on opposite tacks at this point Rule 18 does not apply (18.1a).
When Y tacks at point 3 they are not entitled to 'Mark Room' as the rules clearly state that 18.2 does not apply between them.
18.3a allows Y to sail above close hauled as long as they do not cause B to sail above close hauled or prevent them from rounding the mark. As there was contact between them it shows that something clearly went wrong.
As Y also changed course to go above I believe Rule 15 applies.
So unless Y can prove that B was well above the layline and could have changed course to a close hauled course then the odds are definitely not in their favour but B is also not required to react to Y unless it is obvious they are not keeping clear. B may have assume Y would sail astern of her and tack.
Without a witness the case for Y does not look good. My gut feeling in this case is that most PCs would find in favour of B unless there is a witness involved.
The rules are stacked against latecomers at a windward mark on port, for a good reason IMO.
So my advice is, if you are going to come in late on port make sure you have a gap to go in and if it doesn;t work you need to bail out (bail out protest later).
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 8:28pm
Originally posted by JimC
Gosh Brass, you're interpreting 'prevent' very differently from me. I was thinking that it meant forcing the other boat the wrong side of the mark.
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That's certainly the example the commentaries discuss with respect to 'prevent'.
OK. What does anyone think about Diagram 2, where Y deliberately puts on a mark-trap?
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Apr 16 at 8:49pm
Originally posted by sundowner6959
If Y had not tacked below B but had been abreast and on the same starboard tack and on the layline within 2 boat lengths and the wind shifted 15 deg.(header) would Y not be entitled to shoot the mark with B giving room? |
Provided boats had been overlapped, not clear ahead/astern when the first of them reached three boatlengths from the mark
Absobleedinglutely.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 12:11pm
Originally posted by Brass
Originally posted by JimC
Gosh Brass, you're interpreting 'prevent' very differently from me. I was thinking that it meant forcing the other boat the wrong side of the mark.
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That's certainly the example the commentaries discuss with respect to 'prevent'.
OK. What does anyone think about Diagram 2, where Y deliberately puts on a mark-trap?
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I would guess it is Rule 11 as Y is not preventing B from passing the mark on the correct side (so doesn't break 18.3) as B is well above the layline they could head up..
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 3:31pm
Can B pass the mark without hitting Y?
How is that not 'preventing' B from passing the mark?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 5:03pm
Not sure what you mean...
I don't think we need the "prevent" clause in this situation since if Blue goes behind yellow she's entitled to mark room (18.3b), and if she goes in front of yellow and past close hauled then that's the first sentence of 18.3(a).
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 6:38pm
I assume blue doesn't have to predict at point 4 that yellow will stay htw past the mark, and by stage 5 will need to go past close-hauled, so blue is wrong.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Jon Meadowcroft
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 9:05pm
This seems a pretty pointless and unrealistic example
In the starting position Y is downwind of B who is on the lay line. Apparently by pointing the boat head to wind after a tack Y gets its transom past the mark before B gets there.
It does not happen like this!
If it could happen Y tacked in the zone. I don't think she wants to be hanging about waiting for anyone else to turn up. B can easily sail over the top has physics has to make Y stop!
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 11:06pm
Originally posted by JimC
Not sure what you mean... |
Can B pass the mark without hitting Y?
Isn't that Y preventing B from passing the mark?
Originally posted by JimC
if she goes in front of yellow and past close hauled then that's the first sentence of 18.3(a). |
Yes, if it is possible for B to luff up past her close hauled course before she hits Y
Originally posted by JimC
I don't think we need the "prevent" clause in this situation since if Blue goes behind yellow she's entitled to mark room (18.3b), and |
Disagree.
If B bears away, she will be clear astern of Y.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Apr 16 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by Jon Meadowcroft
This seems a pretty pointless and unrealistic example
In the starting position Y is downwind of B who is on the lay line. Apparently by pointing the boat head to wind after a tack Y gets its transom past the mark before B gets there.
It does not happen like this!
If it could happen Y tacked in the zone. I don't think she wants to be hanging about waiting for anyone else to turn up. B can easily sail over the top has physics has to make Y stop! |
We are discussing the operation of a rule. Of course the example is contrived. I'm trying to examine what happens at the boundaries of the rule.
I disagree that it couldn't happen in practice.
If Y had passed head to wind before reaching the zone, it would be a routine mark-trap, so all that is needed is for Y to misjudge her position with respect to the zone boundary when she tacks.
B has never been on the layline. B is always well above the layline.
If B is on the layline, she's nearly always going to get the benefit of rule 18.3( a ) first sentence.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 13 Apr 16 at 9:02am
Originally posted by Brass
Can B pass the mark without hitting Y?
How is that not 'preventing' B from passing the mark? |
18.3 states:
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark
on the required side,
In your contrived example B is well above the layline and could come up to a close hauled course and still leave the mark on the required side. Once they are past the mark it becomes a windward leeward situation.
There is no mention of B being entitled to sail their proper course in 18.3 just that they be allowed to leave the mark on the required side. Which, in this case, had they come up to a close hauled course, they could have.
This is why being on the layline is key as it closes off these situations.
------------- Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74
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