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boatshed View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 May 15 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by Jack Sparrow

It depends on how big your heavy helm is. 80kg works fine on a Farr 3.7.

If we are talking much more than that I would expect the 90kg > 120kg helm to be able to pull just about anything up a slipway. If the boat is still breaking your back and you are that big a helm, I think you need to see a doctor and maybe give up sailing. Because you clearly have a back problem that needs medical attention.


As much as I like the Farr, it is 2-3 feet too short and an 80kg helm is too much unless you sail in a regular 20-25 knots in Auckland harbour.   Think about how an 80 kg helm will do on a (biggish) UK inland water in 8 - 10 knots.  I can tell you, they'll do rubbish.

Even if you are reasonably fit and 85kg, you don't want to be hauling a Contender, at about 100kg (all up), up the slip.   You will get a slipped disc and need a doctor.   As Woodburner said, the Contender is simply too heavy and the class should bite the bullet on this.   There are ten Contenders on Apollo Duck, all are fit for the knackers yard and dropping the hull weight 30 kg won't make them worth a penny less. 




Edited by boatshed - 22 May 15 at 9:44pm
Steve
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Posts: 332 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Woodburner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 15 at 10:50pm
Everything's too bloody heavy, ever since I've been around this sport there are tales of bad backs, pulled muscles, shoulders etc. We don't need it, even this Icon built recently by an alleged high performance builder is stupidly heavy.

Whereas in every other field of human leisure endeavour light weight is key and all innovation trends to that end, only in this screwed up world is the opposite the case, it's totally mental and no wonder numbers are falling off.


Edited by Woodburner - 22 May 15 at 10:51pm
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 May 15 at 11:00pm
Even if you are reasonably fit and 85kg, you don't want to be hauling a Contender, at about 100kg (all up), up the slip.   You will get a slipped disc and need a doctor.

I'm reasonably unfit, and about 74kg. Never had to see a doctor about a slipped disc in 7 years of hauling a Contender up a slipway. 

Sure you could probably produce a Contender at a 20 kg less, perhaps more if you were prepared to spend more or to accept a shorter competitive life. But it's not hard to see why there's little enthusiasm in the class - it remains great to sail and fairly successful, can still pull out 50 entries at the Nationals in a good year - not bad for a 45 year old boat with a fairly narrow target group. Plus one of the things the Contender excels at is good winds at sea - conditions in which the weight is generally an advantage.


Edited by PeterG - 22 May 15 at 11:00pm
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:26am
I'm not suggesting tampering with the Contender.   They seem to be doing.  Although the style of boat interests me, I won't get another one.

I'm not interested in a  Laser II.  I would like a bigger person's version of a Farr 3.7 which is why I suggested putting a trapeze on a Phantom.  Maybe even sticking Halo rig on a Phantom with a trapeze.  11.5 sq.m sail on a Phantom would be pretty close to a bigger persons Farr 3.7.    Unless the hull shape is all wrong.

Maybe that Hadron boat with a double bottom would do also be a suitable hull
Steve
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:36am
the blaze would have way too much RM with racks and wires.... Phantom is the best donor hull for the duck pond imho. Whack a square top sail on it and get another 2m of sail area ;-)
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:52am
Just sticking an extra wire on a boat designed without it rarely works well. Much better off to have a boat designed for the job from scratch.

I well remember Paul Bieker saying of 14s "everyone said two strings would be a cheap way to go faster, then we all got to chuck our hulls".

A great boat will have hull shape, displacement, rig, righting moment all working in harmony. Change one without the matching change in the rest and at best you'll have a mediocre boat.
Frankenboats can be great fun to assemble, and a giggle when conditions are right, but rarely something you'd want to get up every Sunday morning to sail.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 11:40am
In your opinion, could the Farr 3.7 'scale up' for bigger sailors? Or would you be better looking to 'de-stodge' a contender?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 12:32pm
I'm sure Farr could scale up the 3.7 config for bigger sailors, whether I could do it first time would be another matter. But the proportions would be significantly different. It would certainly need to be longer and quite possibly thinner. With what we can do now with construction and weight maybe a bit less freeboard but possibly vestigial wings to maintain separation of feet from wake.
Probably wouldn't be a country mile away from the RS600.

To destodge the Contender, well, you'd be reducing the weight a lot so the rocker line probably should change, and then with what we know now it would probably be good to have chines aft at least. And then that rig is so much of its era, for sure that would need to change completely. A bit more freeboard would do no harm either as a trapezing platform, or maybe little winglets to get the ankles a bit more away from the waves.
Probably wouldn't be a country mile away from the RS600.

But if one wanted a nice modern singlehander it might be interesting to buy Clive a lot of pints and get him involved in a conversation about what he'd do if designing a boat to the spec with what he knows now.
Probably have some appreciable improvements on the RS600...

Edited by JimC - 23 May 15 at 12:33pm
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boatshed View Drop Down
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Posts: 457 		Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 1:02pm
Originally posted by JimC

Just sticking an extra wire on a boat designed without it rarely works well. Much better off to have a boat designed for the job from scratch.

I well remember Paul Bieker saying of 14s "everyone said two strings would be a cheap way to go faster, then we all got to chuck our hulls".

A great boat will have hull shape, displacement, rig, righting moment all working in harmony. Change one without the matching change in the rest and at best you'll have a mediocre boat.
Frankenboats can be great fun to assemble, and a giggle when conditions are right, but rarely something you'd want to get up every Sunday morning to sail.


I take your point about the Int 14 but that is a high performance  development class and as such the aim is just to make them quicker.  The hulls will continue to change.    I'm more interested in taking a moderate performance boat that is reasonably light and has a reasonable planing hull.   The trapeze addition is more about having to avoid hiking for long beats.   At the end of the day, this is what a Contender is and a lot of the time down wind they are not on the wire but sat comfortably on the side deck.   

Not much different from putting a trapeze on an Enterprise.    The 59er seemed to benefit from the crew being on the wore and that was designed as a hiking boat.

TT  I mentioned the Blaze Halo boat and it is too wide with the tubes.   I would get rid of them
Steve
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 15 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by boatshed

The 59er seemed to benefit from the crew being on the wire


As you can tell from the huge fleets round the world...
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