Alternative to a Contender
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12011
Printed Date: 08 Jul 25 at 8:18pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Alternative to a Contender
Posted By: boatshed
Subject: Alternative to a Contender
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 1:18pm
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As much as the Contender looks pretty cool, is great in a big breeze and a heavy helm delight, it is a weighty beast and breaks one's back pulling it up the slip. So, the alternatives: The RS600 is lightweight, a twitchy so and so, equipped with scaffolding and maybe better suited to lighter helms. Farr 3.7 looks great, light but is really a light weight's boat. Int Canoe. Umm, fab but the new ones are serious money and again looks like a light weights boat. I can't think of any other single sail, trapeze single handers for round the cans racing. So, what about putting trapeze on a Phantom? Would it be a bit like a Farr 3.7 but for bigger people? Or is the hull/sail shape all wrong? Or a trapeze on a Blaze Halo as it is but bin the scaffolding? Just pondering things. ------------- Steve |
Replies:
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 2:29pm
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I think the last of those would work well, but really the Contender has the market sewn up for one design racing with trapeze and no spinnaker. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Surfasaurus
Date Posted: 21 May 15 at 9:45pm
| RS600 is an excellent big persons boat, and in their heyday they were dominated by helms weighing 85-95kg. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 10:34am
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My brother in law, who is 6'2" tall sailed a 600 for years before swapping to a Musto. I can't remember him ever saying he felt too big for it. He did swim a lot, though! ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 11:39am
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I agree two things, the Contender has the market sewn up, limited as it is but secondly that it is too stupidly heavy, especially on a day like sunday when we had the contenders down and even they got blown off, luckily I had to leave having got the Snipes up the beach (even more stupid weight), I didn't want to bugger my back up lifting all that lead out of a shore dump.
Imagine what a down to weight modern version of the Contender might achieve, it might even broaden their market sector. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 12:02pm
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Some classes it has worked, others have died when major changes have been made to boats. I can see why they wouldn't want to risk making changes to a worldwide successful fleet. 10kg could be knocked off, though - all the new boats must be carrying that anyway. For some reason, I think that is planned anyway? Or am I mixing up wishes and reality again?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 12:07pm
Too tippy. Yep, they can be got to grips with but I'm after a more stable platform. But interesting to know they are ok for bigger helms. Thanks. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 12:10pm
Don't have time to do an open meeting schedule. It's just for hacking around the cans in the club h/c races. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 12:17pm
What it means is that choice becomes limited, as no other boat has ever managed to gain true traction, so you can't decide to buy a Delta instead, as they never really sold any. Offhand, I( can't think of the names of other attempts at breaking into the market, but the 600 is the only one which made any impact at all. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Nipper
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 1:08pm
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"I can't think of any other single sail, trapeze single handers for round the cans racing. So, what about putting trapeze on a Phantom? Would it be a bit like a Farr 3.7 but for bigger people? Or is the hull/sail shape all wrong?" Back in the day (1973/74), I remember some local South Coast boat builders, built 3 or 4 Phantoms over a winter (their sail nos were 98-101). After a year, given that they were not big guys, they put trapezes on them, and it seemed to work OK. ( These were single floor plywood boats with Needlespars so not the stiffest combos). Now Phantoms are double bottomed the platform looks even more suitable to adding a trapeze IMHO. Others more knowledgeable of current Phantoms may know why it might not be suitable. ------------- 39 years of dinghy racing and still waiting to peak. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 2:16pm
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sidebar your honour.... Anyone have any experience of single handing / single stringing an RS500?
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Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 2:47pm
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It depends on how big your heavy helm is. 80kg works fine on a Farr 3.7. If we are talking much more than that I would expect the 90kg > 120kg helm to be able to pull just about anything up a slipway. If the boat is still breaking your back and you are that big a helm, I think you need to see a doctor and maybe give up sailing. Because you clearly have a back problem that needs medical attention. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 2:55pm
I couldn't think of a worse form of sailing torture, other than a 'dry' none alcoholic Merlin Nationals, they're weather helmed at the best of times, maybe do able with the small rig but they aint many of them about. I've seen the V3000 sailed I wouldn't exactly say successfully but it got round the course so maybe with practise. My recent thinking on the Phantom was wether it could be extended for two light weights with a jib, they are so light to manoeuvre about and my crew has a prolapsed disc so we struggle to manouevre pretty much anything around on the beach, these effing dinghies are a health hazard they are so heavy it's time folk started suing..
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 2:57pm
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Laser two with no jib. Cant get cheaper than that! |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 3:09pm
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I can see the 500 being sailed singlehanded, but I can't imagine it being that much fun except for a blast around, as none of the controls are set up for it. Laser II is a very cheap way of doing things, has to be said. Keep the jib, though, you soon get used to bringing it across. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 4:04pm
The only issue I can see with a Laser II, is you would need to rearrange the mainsheet so you could tack/gybe and keep an extension long enough to trapeze with, or alternatively go telescopic on every change of tack! Agree with keeping the jib otherwise likely to introduce significant weather helm. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 4:19pm
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Twin extensions? Bit of a faff, though. Personally, I'd simply go aft main, so as to be able to hold extension and sheet in one hand easily while playing the jib, but I know I'm in the minority there!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 5:00pm
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Vortex A Class Shadow |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 5:01pm
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Posted By: iiiiitick
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 6:29pm
| When we messed about with an L2 a few years ago and broke the jib halyard, I think? 'He' tied a bit of stick to the extension. I cant remember but do L2's have a deck step mast? Stick a plate on and move it forward 6". Horrible mast though.... |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 9:42pm
As much as I like the Farr, it is 2-3 feet too short and an 80kg helm is too much unless you sail in a regular 20-25 knots in Auckland harbour. Think about how an 80 kg helm will do on a (biggish) UK inland water in 8 - 10 knots. I can tell you, they'll do rubbish. Even if you are reasonably fit and 85kg, you don't want to be hauling a Contender, at about 100kg (all up), up the slip. You will get a slipped disc and need a doctor. As Woodburner said, the Contender is simply too heavy and the class should bite the bullet on this. There are ten Contenders on Apollo Duck, all are fit for the knackers yard and dropping the hull weight 30 kg won't make them worth a penny less. ------------- Steve |
Posted By: Woodburner
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 10:50pm
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Everything's too bloody heavy, ever since I've been around this sport there are tales of bad backs, pulled muscles, shoulders etc. We don't need it, even this Icon built recently by an alleged high performance builder is stupidly heavy. Whereas in every other field of human leisure endeavour light weight is key and all innovation trends to that end, only in this screwed up world is the opposite the case, it's totally mental and no wonder numbers are falling off.
------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/moses" rel="nofollow - Foil fun |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 22 May 15 at 11:00pm
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Even if you are reasonably fit and 85kg, you don't want to be hauling a Contender, at about 100kg (all up), up the slip. You will get a slipped disc and need a doctor. I'm reasonably unfit, and about 74kg. Never had to see a doctor about a slipped disc in 7 years of hauling a Contender up a slipway. Sure you could probably produce a Contender at a 20 kg less, perhaps more if you were prepared to spend more or to accept a shorter competitive life. But it's not hard to see why there's little enthusiasm in the class - it remains great to sail and fairly successful, can still pull out 50 entries at the Nationals in a good year - not bad for a 45 year old boat with a fairly narrow target group. Plus one of the things the Contender excels at is good winds at sea - conditions in which the weight is generally an advantage.
------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:26am
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I'm not suggesting tampering with the Contender. They seem to be doing. Although the style of boat interests me, I won't get another one. I'm not interested in a Laser II. I would like a bigger person's version of a Farr 3.7 which is why I suggested putting a trapeze on a Phantom. Maybe even sticking Halo rig on a Phantom with a trapeze. 11.5 sq.m sail on a Phantom would be pretty close to a bigger persons Farr 3.7. Unless the hull shape is all wrong. Maybe that Hadron boat with a double bottom would do also be a suitable hull ------------- Steve |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:36am
| the blaze would have way too much RM with racks and wires.... Phantom is the best donor hull for the duck pond imho. Whack a square top sail on it and get another 2m of sail area ;-) |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 10:52am
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Just sticking an extra wire on a boat designed without it rarely works well. Much better off to have a boat designed for the job from scratch.
I well remember Paul Bieker saying of 14s "everyone said two strings would be a cheap way to go faster, then we all got to chuck our hulls". A great boat will have hull shape, displacement, rig, righting moment all working in harmony. Change one without the matching change in the rest and at best you'll have a mediocre boat. Frankenboats can be great fun to assemble, and a giggle when conditions are right, but rarely something you'd want to get up every Sunday morning to sail. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 11:40am
| In your opinion, could the Farr 3.7 'scale up' for bigger sailors? Or would you be better looking to 'de-stodge' a contender? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 12:32pm
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I'm sure Farr could scale up the 3.7 config for bigger sailors, whether I could do it first time would be another matter. But the proportions would be significantly different. It would certainly need to be longer and quite possibly thinner. With what we can do now with construction and weight maybe a bit less freeboard but possibly vestigial wings to maintain separation of feet from wake.
Probably wouldn't be a country mile away from the RS600. To destodge the Contender, well, you'd be reducing the weight a lot so the rocker line probably should change, and then with what we know now it would probably be good to have chines aft at least. And then that rig is so much of its era, for sure that would need to change completely. A bit more freeboard would do no harm either as a trapezing platform, or maybe little winglets to get the ankles a bit more away from the waves. Probably wouldn't be a country mile away from the RS600. But if one wanted a nice modern singlehander it might be interesting to buy Clive a lot of pints and get him involved in a conversation about what he'd do if designing a boat to the spec with what he knows now. Probably have some appreciable improvements on the RS600... |
Posted By: boatshed
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 1:02pm
I take your point about the Int 14 but that is a high performance development class and as such the aim is just to make them quicker. The hulls will continue to change. I'm more interested in taking a moderate performance boat that is reasonably light and has a reasonable planing hull. The trapeze addition is more about having to avoid hiking for long beats. At the end of the day, this is what a Contender is and a lot of the time down wind they are not on the wire but sat comfortably on the side deck. Not much different from putting a trapeze on an Enterprise. The 59er seemed to benefit from the crew being on the wore and that was designed as a hiking boat. TT I mentioned the Blaze Halo boat and it is too wide with the tubes. I would get rid of them ------------- Steve |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 2:24pm
As you can tell from the huge fleets round the world... |
Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 7:01pm
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Don't kow what's wrongwith an L2. Just got one and looking forward to doing it single handed as that's what I've got it for. Haven't sailed one since the early 80's but was a blast then and now should be a good laugh. I think the Laser Vargo? has a vid about self tacking jib mod that I was going to try. I'll wack a fully centre main on it rake the mast back as far as I can and see how it goes. Lovely hull, Bethwaite bow, cheap'n cheerful single hander. Contender lovely boat.......heavy boats need excellent trolleys, correct proportions so you can pull well, good hand grips and roller bearings in the hubs...seriously makes a massive difference. My latest wheel barrrow has roller bearings and the difference over a standard one when loaded with soil is huge |
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 23 May 15 at 11:17pm
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Balance is everything with a trolley, you don't want to be wasting energy lifting the weight of the boat when you could more usefully use it to pull the thing.
------------- Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard" Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |