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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 10:21pm
Originally posted by JimC

Just reworked our club Autumn series with all the new handicaps... The two Phantoms dropped from 4th and 5th with 10pts and 12pts respectively to 4th and 5th with 11pts and 12pts respectively.
The only place changes were a Streaker who went from fractionally ahead of a couple of RS200s to fractionally behind, and my Canoe, which also dropped a place.

Quoting Jim's post just to give people another chance to take it on board.

The subsequent postings on this thread read as if hardly anybody (apart from Craiggo) has read it.

The changes might sound big, but in the real world they change little.
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

So how the f**k can any of you defend all this gerrymandering?


Hang on... I know I shouldn't rise to it, but isn't gerrymandering a process for messing with the numbers to obtain a desired result rather than accept the result that come naturally?

Yes exactly that, like Sailjuice giving a boat an artificially slow handicap in order to raise more entrys to events, to boost participation numbers, which in turn knocks on to the data fed into your computer..
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:59pm
Sailjuice results aren't used are they?
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 12:16am
And even if they did, they would only use the raw data.
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Posts: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SalsaPirates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by JimC

Just reworked our club Autumn series with all the new handicaps... The two Phantoms dropped from 4th and 5th with 10pts and 12pts respectively to 4th and 5th with 11pts and 12pts respectively.
The only place changes were a Streaker who went from fractionally ahead of a couple of RS200s to fractionally behind, and my Canoe, which also dropped a place.

Quoting Jim's post just to give people another chance to take it on board.

The subsequent postings on this thread read as if hardly anybody (apart from Craiggo) has read it.

The changes might sound big, but in the real world they change little.
Except that Jims calculation only takes into account this years change and not the 4 year = 45 pts change.   Phantom is a great boat, but it is a relativelly small class and I am not aware of any club which has an individually large enough fleet to justify class racing and therefore all owners are consigned to handicap at a club level ....   which for most is 90-100% of all their sailing.   It is extrememly demotivating to be so unfairly handicapped and the class is genuinly suffering / dying for it.  
I have heard all the theories about clubs assigning local handicaps ....  but seriously how often does this happen?  pretty rarely I would suggest.
Only answer seems to be to try and encourage lots of numpties into the class to bring the average results down!   Classes such as Phantom, Merlins, Nat 12 etc. have thrived on being able to offer good quality and competative racing, but then get hammered by the current system.
I dont have the answer, but just know that this is wrong.
 
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 7:35am
Wasn't Stone SC already using a sub-1000 PY for Phantoms years ago?
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Oli View Drop Down
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Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 7:38am
Don't see how it's unfair? All returns from all clubs and all classes are put through the same process, the end result is a product of what has been returned to the RYA and the handicap is what each class has achieved themselves.  Take it as a compliment that your handicap has dropped so much, your class must be full of great sailors and very few numpties.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 9:16am
Can of worms opened, I am almost sad I am not going to Ali Pali to enjoy a beer or 2 with various forumites this weekend....

FWIW We have a Phantom sailor who regularly sails the boat down below 980 and other who regularly get to the 1000 mark so inland on restricted water that PY is probably about right.

Others are plainly wrong for our water so (hopefully) our SC will tweak where required.
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yellowwelly View Drop Down
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Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 9:57am
Originally posted by Jeepers

/end thread

(Pork pie, no Stella or Red Wine)

...24 pages...no end of heartfelt opinions...masses of brain cell time expended..and thats it! The problem hasn't even been resolved....

LOL  that could 2224 and your final sentence would still stand.

Here's Jimbo's three ways to deal with these 'issues':

1) accept statistics, park the emotion with the trolley dolly and learn the finer skills of handicap racing... I think in Clive's book is says sail cleanly and avoid B-O-B action.

2) forget the statistics, really, just don't look and enjoy the sailing as the 'competitive cruise' that it is

3) find an alternative way to derive the competitive value, my idea is on here entitled Ozone Sailing

In the absence of 3 (or something similar/better), I will go with 2 for next boat, but I'm not going to kid anyone that the quality of the racing is the same as in a class race, nor racing scratch as I used to in Lasers against 420s.
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NeilB-Phantom View Drop Down
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Posts: 41 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilB-Phantom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 14 at 11:34am
I got back in to dinghy sailing  5 years ago after a long lay off, bought a Phantom as I'm now much to big for most anything else.  I've seen a 45 point or nearly 5% drop in PY since I bought the boat. I've improved and changed from GRP and tin mast to epoxy/FRP and carbon so I was just about staying competitive, I used to be able to beat the other single handers occasionally, but not since the drop to 1012 and no hope now.  I sail on Plymouth sound so whilst not open sea a rougher than a lake.
Seems to me the RYA need to do to things if individual classes are not to be penalised by statistical anomalies:
1.)  Limit the %age change per year / and over a number of years when there is no development in the class rules.
2.)  Distinguish between in land and coastal clubs, should be easy to do automatically, 1 field in the returns form.  Then its easy to generate 3 handicaps the "official" one based on all data and a coastal and an open water one based on subsets.  We'd at least have a number to take to sailing ctte race officers then as a basis for a change.
I would think it be easy enough to do this retrospectively over the past 5 years data too. 

The RYA need to do something, only got to look at attendance numbers for opens and Nationals to see that the change in handicap for the racing most of us are limited to is driving people out of the class may be even away from sailing.  Surely not what the RYA is supposed to be doing.


Edited by NeilB-Phantom - 01 Mar 14 at 11:48am
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