PY changes for 2014
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11358
Printed Date: 14 Jul 25 at 1:09am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: PY changes for 2014
Posted By: jeffers
Subject: PY changes for 2014
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:05am
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Well it is that time of year again, the dinghy show approaches and (I assume) the new PY lists will be published? Anyone (who is not on the inside) have any predictions as to what will dominate the club bar talk for the next 12 months?...... ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Replies:
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:23am
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It'll be wrong, favour inland sailing and still have no basis in fact? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:30am
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my predictions: - it will more statistically accurate than last year - it will cause some minor controversy, but a quick calculation on the ET using current and 2014 numbers will show little to no bearing on results - someone will suggest an IRC/SCHRS style dinghy system should be implemented - that person will use the word 'gerrymandering' before this thread is out - actual participation in dinghy sailing will continue to decline
------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:40am
ftfy ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:45am
Oh dear, I hope your afternoon is a happier one.  It is going to be a great dinghy show, everyone will "see the light" that racing dinghies is fun and a wholesale return to the sport will miraculously occurr. Nobody will care that their handicap has altered because there are so many boats racing it'll be virtually one design for every class (except lasers as the court case will mean no more will be built and what is left will be on foils!) Had a great idea .... wouldn't it be great if we got an IMS style handicap for dinghies to stop all the gerrymandering that goes on with the PY system!  Think that covers all YW's points in a single pointless post. Have a nice (and optimisitic) day and enjoy the dinghy show if you're going  ------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744 www.blueseaconsultingllp.com |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:54am
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Nice to see yellowwelly has cut to the chase. Now no need for 30 pages of crap! This is now a dead thread, it is deceased, it is no more.
 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:56am
They are based exactly on fact (race returns), and will favour inland sailing if more returns are sent in by inland clubs. As no club has enough handicap racing to get statistically viable returns, alterations at club level will still result in crew skill and boat suitability for the water being penalized, and lack of alteration will cause "bandit" accusations, so club politics will still blight the system. As usual, too few clubs will send returns, making it hard for any data (say sea returns) to be split out and actually have validity. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 12:07pm
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Surely the majority of bigger clubs have now signed up to the RYA/Sailracer weekly returns scheme http://www.pys.org.uk/auto/new_default.asp" rel="nofollow - http://www.pys.org.uk/auto/new_default.asp (I would hope)
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 12:23pm
I hear the Merlin will actually be cut 40 ... 
Ant that the Moth PY will be wind speed dependant to deal with foiling
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 12:50pm
Cue controversy every race, not least because wind speeds can vary hugely with location and time over the course of a race. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 12:55pm
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I'm guessing it's a forum wind-up from 2547 there.... how many mothies do you know who even bother launching in less than marginal foiling. TBH- they all seem fairly relaxed about their lack of competitiveness in very light winds. ------------- |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 1:25pm
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Are we allowed personal vendetta's ? Here is an interesting trend for Mr Fuller. 2008 WANDERER 1132 2010 WANDERER 1139 2012 WANDERER 1144 2013 WANDERER 1150 I wonder what this years will be???? |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 1:28pm
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Watching Wanderer V's GP14 on a regular basis a few years ago, the Wanderer was never as quick, despite a similar handicap, so maybe the change was needed? Admittedly, one example isn't representative, but it shows there may be a reason. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 1:41pm
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Looking here: http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx reveals that some13 clubs have already submitted a return (I am guessing using the 'old' method. One name does stick out, Hayling Island not using the PY Online site. The other clubs appear to be relatively small. There is a much bigger list of clubs using the PY Online to submit data (including Hunts, kudos to the Sailing Sec for getting this sorted). I wonder how this compares to previous years. Perhaps The sail racer/PY online people who lurk here can enlighten us? ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 1:45pm
| this forum lacks a "vote here to kill this thread" button |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 3:14pm
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What I want to know is why we have to wait until the beginning of March to get these figures / guesses? The RYA appears to be stuck in the era when one didn't put one's boat in the water until after Easter! For many, the new season starts at the beginning of March.
And for my final contribution, the PN numbers are biased towards sea sailing / large open water clubs where you have a chance of sailing any boat nearer to its predicated handicap performance on the long legs used whereas us on inland round the cans with the multitude of windshifts on each leg have little chance to reach this ideal. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 3:28pm
Most of the Data comes from inland clubs so by it's very nature it's generally more accurate for them. Tide and waves are the factors that make the figures an issue on coastal venues. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 3:49pm
Many clubs don't actually stop sailing over the winter these days...... At Hunts we have 2 weekends of no racing where we have work parties at the end of February but aside from that we sail all year round. Often getting our biggest turnouts for the Winter series. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 3:54pm
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The Phantom to go back to 1047 (as it was when I first bought one)and prove it was all a horrible mistake the drop to 1012.
Now I am not sailing a very tired wood boat with needlespar rig that might be a little unfair! Only Joking ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 4:51pm
This is perfectly reasonable for a 'classic' Phantom and we do have criteria for this at Hunts. When they raced as a fleet though it was boat on boat. (I know your tongue was firmly in your cheek but there are a fair few older boats still out there sailing). ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 5:26pm
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I'd raise a glass if that Merlin had 40 lopped off... ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 5:33pm
| The timing was discussed, not for the first time. The majority of clubs still seem to start and end their years when the clocks change. Issues with pushing the publication date earlier include that yhe closing date for returns goes back into the previous summer series, and the period when all the admin is done would hit December, which isn't the easiest month to get a bunch of volunteers together. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 5:45pm
Wanderer? Wtf is a wanderer, I've never heard of one, is it like a Wayfarer only a tad mentally unstable..? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 5:56pm
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try the Classes button on the Y&Y site - all your questions answered. But yes, it is a small Wayfarer.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Drylander
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 7:14pm
| I don't understand why GRF seems to have a downer on the Merlin, I sail one which had a PY of 1024 when I got it, still the same boat and now has to sail off 994. I have got older and slower much like the boat but the PY still keeps dropping. This is mainly due I think to the quality of the sailers at the front end of the fleet with a large amount of the counties top sailers choosing to compete in what has become one of the strongest fleets about. As most of the top jockey's don't do a lot of handicap racing I don't suppose they are too bothered anyway. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 7:27pm
Some history then.. Over the years I've been sailing against a couple of pals with whom we're pretty evenly matched, although we've tended to sail Assyms, to their Sym, we had an L3k, they had a Laser 2, we had an RS500 they had a 470, we had the Alto, they had a 505, and although due to the nature of our triangle sausage courses which tend to favour Syms, they would come out on top as often as not, we still had some great racing and alternating positions, then they got the Merlin - game over, can't get near them unless circumstances are extreme (drifter or very light offshore shifty), it's a Bandit plain and simple, it sails to 950 beats an RS400 very easily, that's why, so it is always the butt of jokes to that end...It's light and riddled with carbon yet uses a handicap from an old wooden clunker.. What do you expect if you cheat? Smiles and respect, or derision and calls of BS? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 7:30pm
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And a lot of the handicap racing that these top jockeys do choose to do is on large open waters / sea where they can sail to 994 (or whatever it is) as the courses enabled them to use the spinnaker to advantage. On smaller inland waters with shorter legs, you often struggle to get a good spinnaker leg and have to watch the real bandits in their Solos hang soon to your coat tails.
It amazes me that iGRF has not bought a Solo! ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 7:38pm
Why would you say that?  I don't have a history of sailing Bandits..quite the contrary, they made me sail the 500 off 963, the Alto off 915 until I took on a novice crew, if i wanted to counter their banditry I'd think about returning to the L3k or worse, get a Miracle. Nope, it's about the boat and the fun of it 1st, position over the water 2nd and actual result last in my consideration, but that doesn't stop me winding up Bandits and pointing out holes in a system that makes honest sailors appear to be scoundrels  ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 8:18pm
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Please, please, please drop the Miracle handicap from 1200 to something sensible like 1130
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Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 8:39pm
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Why would iGRF sail a Solo? On the principle of if you can't beat them then join them? I'm sure you'd enjoy one on your lake but not on the sea. ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 8:53pm
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Drylander, one moment you are saying the handicap has dropped because of the good sailors, the next that they don't do much handicap racing. That makes no sense. The arguement that a dropping handicap is wrong because your particular boat hasn't changed is a spurious one. It is based on results from every boat that is handicap racing (and sending returns) when related to every other boat. It must be that the advances in rigging and construction over the last 20 years have made the boat faster, even if the basic design has been pretty static. The same applies to Solos. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:31pm
I tried one, someone crashed into me, it broke, I very nearly had to buy it, but the offender who crashed into me and I have agreed to pay for it to be repaired, did I enjoy it? There were spiders in it, I don't much like spiders, all my life I've had to put up with removing them from hysterical daughters bedrooms, pretending I don't mind picking them up, now I've reached an age where I'm beginning to not have to do things i don't much like, like sailing solo's with spiders in them.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:36pm
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They don't HAVE to have spiders in them... well, no more than any other boat - mine always seem to have a few hanging around, even the plastic boats.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:45pm
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Laser to change by 2 points again........
Which is about half a bad tack and not even enough time to stop concentrating and eat a mars bar for 5 seconds! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 9:48pm
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No Spiders in my EPS, nor any other boat I've ever sailed, somehow it seemed to me to be perfectly natural that a Solo would have spiders resident in it, it's made of wood, spiders clearly like wood, I bet all wood boats have spiders in them, another good reason to avoid them like the plague. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Telltale
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 10:29pm
| Good sign, spiders in a boat ! They only like dry places so the boat is likely to be dry and therefore lighter. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:26pm
Miracles at WSC are lucky to get in the top half of the fleet in all-classes races, even on 1200. A beat against the tide and they're toast. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 25 Feb 14 at 11:30pm
Not a state of the art Solo, then. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:06am
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I predict that many of the classes will have the same or very similar change this year as last year. RS400 946? Merlin 990? |
Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:10pm
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The 2014 PY numbers are on RYA website already.
http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx" rel="nofollow - http://www.rya.org.uk/racing/Pages/portsmouthyardstick.aspx
Look at the list of downloads on the right hand side of the page.
Streakers down by 7. Doh!
|
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:13pm
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Good to see the Blaze down by 6, Graeme always said it was a bandit. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:28pm
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Phantom down another 10, 'they've' certainly got it in for that class, honestly talk about being just downright vindictive, who are these people?
It really is a disgrace. I wonder if you could actually sue the RYA? Give them something to make their eyes water, it seriously is time this nonsense was ended. What ever this is, fairness has nothing to do with it, nor has the performance of the actual craft. There really does need to be a counter system based on technical facts, look at the Streaker Solo thing, they've had their difference for years, now they're the same, based on random bollox. I'm not even going to start on the poor old Alto at 912 and the EPS unchanged again. Hell it does make you mad ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:36pm
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The experimental number for the Icon is pretty quick (969), must have been some good racing last year.
Nothing else seems very controversial an not really enough to make much of a difference in reality. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:43pm
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912 for the Alto??
Mind you, we started with 925 a year ago, but at the SailJuice we were given 910 and still managed to be competitiveish (having learnt to sail it better), so maybe it's not too far off... ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 5:48pm
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It was 935 originally, and we used to struggle with that on certain courses against the 505 with it's full size jib upwind against our self tacker then off wind they used to break out the monster kite on the deep soaking reaches and runs, only when it was full planing breezy did we get chance.
So, the Icon 969, against the Merlin at 990? Same sort of size, sail plan except one has two and the other three sails, the other way round would probably be nearer the truth, hell the Icon wasn't exactly having it away at 1020, who are these people and what axes are they grinding? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: patj
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:04pm
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Blast. Albacore down to 1050. That means that the good sailor we bought this modern Albacore from, who now has a new YW Dayboat with a bandit PY of 1200 now has to be beaten by seven and a half minutes in an hour's race!
Delighted to see Shearwater S.C. on the returns list probably for the very first time. Well done to Chris, the sailing sec and commiserations on his 1946 Merlins having just got another 4 points faster. At least he, us and RogerD have all gone down by the same amount. |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:08pm
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The RYA/Sailracer site is suggesting 903 for the Altos at WSC. Initially it was 895 (tho' we used 915 till now and they still filled the first 4 places at the Regatta, ahead of two European Champions in the IC's). The L3k is now a bandit on on 1058 - I always thought 1032 was about right. Logically, that should put the V3k on 1033 now, as one kg is worth about one point on the 3k design, but we V's will be stuck on 976 at WSC. Biggest controversy for us at WSC is going to be the Wayfarer going up 11 to 1112. The Hartley Mk IV's already dominate the Medium Hhandicap Fleet ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:25pm
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903? Got nobody in 505's up there then? They'll show Alto's a clean pair of heels in most circumstances.
The RS 500 at 975 can also give them a run for their money with anyone half decent crewing it. Agreed the L3k is now a confirmed bandit, makes you wonder who these people are and do they even race stuff? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:30pm
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Icon is a bit draconian .. ouch ! we must have really annoyed a few crusties out there !! Well then it is now 'official' well 'experimental' at least and it will swing back in time for sure when more club results are considered fully. I'd love to see the calcs used (wet fingers ?) as we have over 300 races worth here from a range of locations and conditons which must have been overlooked. Yes we run the numbers as well.... Currently and by a country mile then it must simply be the fastest 2 sail, 2 person production hiker in the world - bar none - and the obvious 'giant' killer to be seen in ... apparently seeing off Merlins, many asymetrics, Fireballs etc etc - yes you name it and all without a spinnaker or hiking aids and on a simple platform that can be driven by mere club mortals as well. Well we must have got a lot of the design right ! ... the 'less is more' argument of course. Now just suppose we did try out a modest asymetric in 2014 ! 969 could then even be possible ! Anyway what the heck just come and see the association stand at the Show this weekend. You might even want an Icon as well now .... and be able to afford one ;-) Mike L. |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:34pm
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Streaker down another 7!? That might actually make the handicap somewhere near what it should be! ;) ------------- |
Posted By: Vronny
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:37pm
| It will be interesting to see if Streakers can really sail level with Solos. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:50pm
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That'll be the last time any phantoms bother turning up at handicap races then ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 6:54pm
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Miracle at 1200 is just plain wrong.
Back in the day Graduates, Fireflys and Miracles all sailed off the same PY and it was broadly fair. The Grads tended to be quicker upwind, the Fireflys on the tight reaches and the Miracles had their turn downwind. The Graduates have evolved and now carry an extra sqm of mainsail which doesnt really give much upwind, gives a litte extra downwind and really improves the reaches. The Fireflys havent changed at all, and the Miracles have not only started getting off the shelf production glass boats but they have adopted inboard sheeting, so now they are quick upwind, quick downwind and only have an issue on tight reaches. We have a pretty handy Miracle sailed by Nick & Hannah Smith at our club and Nick is a damn good sailor but for the Miracle to have the same PY as a YW Dayboat is crazy, and I am giving them 59 points in my Graduate. Yes I can leave them for dead upwind but downwind they take it all back and more. Our clubs suggested PY for the Miracle is 1074!!!!!!! so miles away from the official figure. |
Posted By: Times 10
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:03pm
I agree, some of the best single handed sailors are sailing the classes which seem to be getting hit by the PY system. The best sailors are sailing Solo's, Phantoms and Streaker's. But these classes are having their handicaps reduced. What happened to the skill factor? The Lightning 368 have gone up 6, but what decent sailors are there in the class? Nice people and loads on here, but sorry the guys in Streaker's will just kick there ar_e's because they are better sailors, not because the boat is slower as a result of some dodgy Handicap system.
I know the guys at Ripon SC (Small pond with trees, where nobody should take racing seriously, but they do.
 ) think the Solo and Streaker should be on the same handicap, but put the Solo and Streaker on a lake the size of Grafham, the Solo will win. I think there is only one point of sailing a Streaker is quicker than a Solo and that is a close reach. Up wind about the same, but on a run or broad reach the Streaker gets killed as the extra Solo sail area wins. Well the Ripon guys have there wish, glad I don't sail there.Based on the Sail Juice series handicap system (Grafham size waters) where average Laser sailors mix with top Solo sailors, the Streaker and the Solo sailors should be on something like 1170.
RYA stop Handicaping good sailor performances.
|
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:11pm
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Times 10,
My comments re: Miracles is a bit tongue in cheek. The RYA system is I believe now as fair as it will ever be, but yes there is a skill factor built into the values. If a particular class is full of beginners then assuming there are enough of them then the PY number will increase until the average class sailor stands a chance of winning. Of course if the top sailors all move into that class then they will clean up but the new PY system should be quick enough to partially fix it the following year. I dont see an alternative as a measurement system just isnt going to work as their are too many variable to sensibly include. We have to stop taking the view that one or two clubs are having a big effect on the data. Unless a class is only based at one or two clubs then it just isnt going to happen as the data used is coming from all over the country. You can see which clubs as they are now explicitally thanked on the PY list. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:45pm
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An alternative based on measurement, would at least have a bearing in fact rather than random bollox of who bothers to send in 'returns'.
I agree the Miracle is ludicrous, we have good sailors using them, but the feeling is the returns come from lots of beginners in larger numbers at other clubs, to be fair and a craft performance guide, the sailor input should be removed from the equation because of the disparate randomness. This system as it currently stands is deranged, the Phantom has been singled out, I worry my pal will just give up and walk away, he was depressed enough last season, frankly it is outrageous that it's been allowed to continue which it will until they kill the class and it's growth, what is the point of that? ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:49pm
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We run local h'caps
Miracle - 1188 Solo - 1140 Phantom - 1010 |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:54pm
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Graeme, 10pts on the PY system will not make a big change a club level. If your pal suffers more than a single place drop on his series results I'll be shocked.
Also how can you say the Phantom has been singled out when the N12, Kestrel, Int Canoe, RS700 & Streaker have all taken similar knocks. As a 700 sailor who tends to do rather well at my club Im really not bothered by the drop and to be honest its just more of a challenge for me to carry on winning, and thats good as it stops me getting bored. |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 7:56pm
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As AlexM suggests you could always locally adjust at your club based on PYS.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 8:11pm
And the L2 on 1055. Always thought the old number was reasonably fair. There is a new 1 piece mast available now. A real tempter now for those wanting a cheap symmetric blast. Just need to sort out the sail controls. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 8:15pm
It was 1047 when he first bought one and my Blaze was 1046 we used to have a good old battle the same way we used to on our Boards. Now he's what 1002 and 7 years older, he hasn't featured for a couple of years now, OK maybe it's banditness at 1047 might have been artificial (although at that time he had an old one), but 1002 it is not, 1015 is harsh enough, given the March of the Laser in the other direction, so from being 1047 to lasers 1078, it's now 1002 against Lasers 1088, that's 76 points and it does make a difference. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 8:17pm
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Its interesting looking at old PY tables and old YY letters as I have been recently. Back in the 70s one point change in PY was equivalent to 11 or 12 now, and classes regularly changed 1 or 2 points. But somehow changing 11 or 23 points now seems so much more than 1 or 2 points did back then.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 8:20pm
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Jim you are spot on. The extra granularity afforded by using 1000s rather than 100s is responsible for a lot of bickering and in real terms makes very little difference.
At your average club, the good guys will still win and the less good will not! |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:15pm
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Forget all these artificial, mythical PNs and get yourself into a boat where you can class race at your club.
Boat on boat is much more challenging and exciting than having to sit around after sailing waiting to find out how you have done. I can't think offhand of any other kind of racing that depends on actuarial calculations to decide the result - it almost reduces racing to the level of the judging in synchronised swimming!! ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:52pm
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There is a simple explanation for a lot of "bandit" classes and also those which are seeing large PY drops this year, Epoxy. Although a brand new wooden Solo, Streaker, Phantom or (possibly) Fireball may be as quick as a new epoxy one, it's not the case when the boats get older. Most people sail club handicap races in boats at least five years old, with the brand new ones tending to be on the open circuit. This means that a handicap 'correction' happens a few years after the epoxy boat was launched. There are still quite a large proportion of the fleet sailing ratty old wooden Solos and Streakers in club races across the country (although this is dropping rapidly), but not very many sailing old wooden Fireballs or Phantoms any more. The Fireball and Phantom handicap has probably just about finished its correction, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Solo and Streaker were knocking on the door of the Laser handicap once the old wooden boats have finally died and been replaced. We sail a 15 year old epoxy Fireball in club races, and I reckon it still sails at about 95% of the potential speed of a new one. You couldn't have said the same about a fifteen year old wooden boat ten years ago ... would have been enough to just make it round the course without anything falling off! I've also just started sailing a nearly new Streaker, and on my first sail it felt no slower round our local puddle than my old Laser did. |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:57pm
Yes, but the Phantom seems to be having this knock every year. Difficult to know what is right from individual circumstances, but what I do notice is that the Phantom although sailed by good sailors does seem to be dropping right down the SJ series results. |
Posted By: Little Monster
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 9:58pm
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We (the Phantom fleet at Northampton) have been sailing off 1008 all year so a drop of 6 from that won't make much difference. Bit more hiking and a couple less pints might help....
Not that I put any relevance on handicap results as we regularly get 5 or 6 phantoms out but the list does show that the system is too slow to adjust especially in an era of few new designs or developments within classes to monitor. The phantom has lost a lot of the top top sailors and as a result has fallen down the Sailjuice results. We have had good results when in a single handed fleet and top guys getting bad results when in a mixed fleet. That suggests that at 1008 it was about right. Going down to 1002 is not the end of the world as the Streaker, OK, RS300 and Blaze etc all appear to be down 5 or 6. Oh hang on what about the Blaze's new carbon rig.... Have the RYA just hit return when processing last year's data or have they looked at the increased speed of that class (and others with design improvements) and applied some Logic? I am happy to be persuaded otherwise but guess not. I'm not bashing the Blaze or the Phantom handicap but I do see a lack of consistency and logic coming from the numbers. I know all the arguments surrounding the number of returns, strengths and weaknesses of boats, where they are sailed etc and that the Sailjuice Series is not the be all and end all but it is a good guide as there are top sailors from most classes regularly out. I do however think that some of the overall results do not support the movement in a lot of the RYA figures. Please can we get some logic into the equation ?? ------------- Phantom "Little Monster" 1404 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:01pm
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The Lightning drop is a little odd, as any problems in keeping up with Solos is because the Solo has got faster, same with the Phantom and the Streaker, so I'd expect the changes to be in those boats, not the Lightning as well. Not that I'm complaining! However, the comment earlier on about standards wasn't really very accurate - I guess we are missing the 2 or 3 rock star type helms who are in the Streaker fleet to sell boats, but other than that, standards would be pretty similar from what I've seen. The Solo has a bigger pool of rockstars, but how much influence do thay actually have in the number of races reported for the stats? Pretty much bugger all, I'd have thought. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:08pm
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:10pm
yes of course, apply logic locally. And be glad you're at Pitsford... one of the more forward thinking that were locally adjusting for quite some time. ------------- |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:11pm
If not interested in handicap racing, why bother to comment in a thread that holds no interest? Why not go and read the class pages of your favorite class racing boat instead? Those of us who ARE interested, because it is what we do most weekends, aren't really that interested in the standard "go and class race" comments - we have heard them before. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:18pm
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erm, because handicap racing dominates club racing at every other club in my area.... nice to know the whinging, sensitivity and defensiveness of a WI committee meeting still reigns supreme amongst handicap racers. Variety on the racecourse can be very good, it's certainly interesting, but at the end of the day, the calculations are nothing but a spreadsheet result... really, it makes no difference to the process. You know how well you did on the water, and if you couldn't figure that out, then you were in the wrong boat against the rest of your peers, simple. We had more participation in the handicap racing when the races weren't even timed, never mind the level of micro statical scrutiny they are under these days.... go figure? ------------- |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:24pm
And I bet that most of those rock star helms don't club race streakers, they only seem to set foot in them for the nationals! From the very limited sailing I've done against the lightnings, before I had a swanky new epoxy streaker might I add, the streaker was simply quicker over the water, and the 1 point handicap difference was obviously nowhere near enough, so its good that the gap has opened up between the two boats ------------- |
Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 26 Feb 14 at 10:49pm
I was wrong - One point is barely enough stop fully hiking long enough to lift a cheek & fart! |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:09am
Because for me that would mean changing club and sailing a solo. Err no. I would rather give up sailing.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:15am
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au contraire... maybe the right spirit is one which mixes simiarlish boats on the start line, but then they race scratch.. for a laugh... without all this feeling and emotion that generates 8 pages within 48 hours (and we're not even a pimple on the wider sailing community) Much as others might deride the vibe of this forum, moaning and whinging about handicaps goes on in every dinghy park and bar across the country, that is something we seem representative of... as Jim said, check out the readers letters from the 80s... I'd venture it's got worse though, not better, even if that seems totally alien and counterintuitive for what seemingly appears 'better statistical work' from the RYA and their voluntary assistance. ------------- |
Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 3:06am
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I've had it now ... Can't sail one design, can't sail handicap ...... Looks like a year out and time to dust off the bike. ------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744 www.blueseaconsultingllp.com |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 6:48am
bump |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 7:33am
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Everytime the py debate comes up the usual bleat about fleet racing being so great comes up too. Yes we understand that it negates the need to be concerned about the py system. But here's the point, for most of us on here we can't get fleet racing, there isn't any in the class of boat that we like racing.
OK do you understand that, we cannot do fleet racing, therefore py racing is all we have. Let us moan and bitch and do what we want about it and keep your fleet racing comments to yourselves please. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 7:38am
quite possibly- and once you've joined your mountain bike/time trial/le jog/casual sunday MAMIL club, will someone give you a handicap because you're riding a 1992 Raleigh? Or will they just welcome you along, give you confidence and inspire you to get better? I guess that's why cycling is booming, less BS... whereas dinghy sailing, here at least, has only mustered a marginal increase year on year according to the Watersports Participation Survey for 2013. Even the report cites the olympic effect and a much nicer summer as the primary contributors. Food for thought.... in the UK there has been a 11,000 increase in people claiming to have been involved in dinghy racing, however the top line stats don't look so good, and boat ownership is down: The proportion of people participating in ‘any boating activity’ more than 6 times has fallen, however, the proportion of people who have participated in ‘any boating activity’ less frequently has increased
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Posted By: ajbaldwin
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 8:58am
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the Vareo up by 19, to 1071. That's the second year in a row it has had a fair increase. I think I need to have a word with the powers that be at the club, as we still sail it of 1038. ------------- Yorkshire Dales SC Vareo 505 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:08am
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from memory that sounds like it should be about right, if a little on the generous side given I used to always think my boat quicker than a Supernova- also on 1071 this year. I always thoroughly enjoyed racing my vareo against the RS200s at our club, but that was back in the day before the races were even timed, never mind results calculated. We had good numbers handicap racing back then. D1 and RS400 look nice and close 959 and 946 respectively... race scratch?
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Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:18am
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To the neutral eye it all seems as fair as it can be. Boats that where called bandits, the handicap has got worse. Boat that where known to be slow, the handicap has got better.
Isn't this what we want? Yes the system is not perfect, no system can be. Yes there are anomalies. But the system works and is the least worst answer to the question of handicap racing.
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Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:26am
If everyone had your attitude towards it, I'd agree with you. Given a set of circumstances, I think I'd actually find it more rewarding than fleet racing- certainly at club level. However there are two ways to get demoralised after a race- one is to acknowledge you sailed badly, how we deal with that is up to us individually. Another is to think the system cheated us, or worse, our competitors feel cheated by it devaluing the result we got. There is no solution to this problem without a significant change in attitude. ------------- |
Posted By: Time Lord
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 9:57am
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What's 'a manual watersport'?
Is it a reference to all the pumping that windsurfers do? ------------- Merlin Rocket 3609 |
Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 10:15am
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I may be simplistic, but I'm just going to go sailing.
Whether the PY on my Lightning/EPS/420 has changed will make not a jot of difference to my results. We might begin experimenting with personal handicaps at our place this season - I've requested 12000 as mine  ------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays' |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 10:38am
SUP/Canoe - both growing iirc ------------- |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 10:43am
| Good to see 117 clubs had submitted through the PYS website, 40 clubs submitted paper(?) versions. |
Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:00am
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What's wrong with paper versions. At least they submitted something. Our club only got a computer a couple of years ago , and Internet only a couple of months ago. Trying to even get people to use the computer to work out the results is a miracle, let alone submitting trace results to a website. God help us all there. The club is full of people who panic when they see a keyboard ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:05am
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I don't think the RYA can get as much info from the paper versions, but agree that it is far far better than no version at all. I'm with Fleaberto on the subject when it actually comes to being on the water and racing, but surely this is the place to be discussing such things. For me, personal handicaps work well within a single class fleet, rather than on top of boat handicapping. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:07am
yep- most of the duffers in sailing clubs are still impressed by the dial-up download images of Helen Mirren's growler.... there's a long way to go before they start using the internet for anything useful and productive. ------------- |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:09am
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An Annual Round Robin is the answer.
With one boat set as a standard, and all the boats with contentious issues invited to submit their craft with a crew and that crew be capable of switching boats. Then they get sailed over a weekend in controlled circumstances in the presence of the great and good of the sailing world who know about this stuff. That way all the anomalies that suggest hidden Agendas would be put to rest. Until something like that happens there are always going to be nagging doubts about commercial agendas, favouritism, cronyism and all those not very nice things to think about. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: yellowwelly
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:13am
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a wake up call is what's needed.... junk the system, go back to basics. Copy the NWF formula and all race in the blindingly obvious groupings that are there (if you have the ability to see through the class structure). Slow Medium Fast Some boats will flick between groups depending on local variables- e.g. very good sailors in one class might go up a category, boats which suffer in tide drop down, etc.... 10 pages in, dinghy sailing needs a bloody revolution against this crap we're being fed by the RYA under the auspices of scientific and statistical accuracy. It won't happen though.... not until the sport has died off to irrelevance first. Graeme- as Commodore run an experiment- lose the spreadsheet, just for 6 months.... see if participation and the fun factor is restored? Don't invest in a new computer and ADSL line, spend club funds on club boat, some beer, some chocolate and some moshi monsters.... then spread the love with best improver category, best sportsmanship on the race course, first across the line, mid fleet mavis, dumbest capsize etc.....
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Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:17am
Maxi how does your club work out the series results? |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 11:21am
The problem at WSC was that we just used to return a list of the official numbers, because that's what we used. The only effect that could have had was to damp changes ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:28pm
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Well I will no longer have to concern myself about the Supernovas catching me up whilst sailing the National 12 in our Sunday Morning Pursuit Race.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:32pm
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Someone works out the series using sailwave but only inputs the actual finishing positions I think, after correction. At least I assume that's what they do as some ro's still seem to produce the individual race results by hand.
I've even written a fool proof step by step guide on how to use sailwave for the club. "it's a computer, bad thing that, what's wrong with hand calcs like we always did it, blooming technology taking over", etc, etc, etc. They cannot quite comprehend that it is easier to use sailwave, it is just that it takes a little learning..... We do normally only have 10-15 boats out so maybe they just can't see the point of putting some effort in to it. ------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:33pm
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Not surprising the N12's handicap has been hit - over the last 3 years there have been some big changes in the leading designs, which somehow have filtered down fairly quickly. Doesn't help the designs which haven't changed, of course, but then the same applies to many one design classes, where the older boats can't keep up with the new, but all sail off the same number.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:35pm
Very true, 12s have been hit hard( that's development classes for you). On the other hand, it doesn't matter so much about the supernova, as none of us are going to catch David in his comet!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Feb 14 at 12:37pm
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Blimey, I'd not noticed that. When I sailed them, I think it was on 1171, same as the Firefly at the time. Now on nearly 1200. Mind, I couldn't get near handicap back then - it is a pretty small boat.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |