Laser 161752 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Published Hull Weights |
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Noah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 29 Dec 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 611 |
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To clarify what I meant - the class rules haven't changed, but the knowledge and expertise to exploit them has built over time. 'Twas the Aussies who built the first 'wide bow' Fireballs in the mid/late eighties I think, when they brought boats over for a UK worlds. But before that one Lawrie Smith (it is reported) decided that having a wet kite in the bow wasn't fast so ditched the chute in favour of bags and never looked back. Much like the Phantoms, Fireballs couldn't be made stiff / strong enough in GRP to be competitive. When foam & epoxy arrived that all changed.
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Nick
D-Zero 316 |
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maxibuddah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
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Polyester phantoms were always made from foam sheets but bonded with polyester. The variances in weight came about from Jeff Vanderborght experimenting with the internal construction of nearly everyone one of the first few getting better with each one. By internal construction this meant bracing, etc to get the strength where it was needed.
The plastic ones were competitive, but only due to the number of home built woodies and all of them taking on weight over time. The Claridge boats were still competitive for a very time after poly ones appeared but they were in the minority.
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Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Chris 249 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 May 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2041 |
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SORRY, RAMBLING POST... ![]() Yep, it's a pretty Australian attitude, but it also seems to be a pretty American attitude (not just the USA, but all of it) and as far as I know a European attitude as well. :-) I think the British scene, wonderful as it is, is something unique that may only be able to survive in a small and densely-populated area with a lot of sailing grounds and a high sailing population. In a larger area it's very, very hard to get together significant numbers to an "Open", so people tend to sail class boats. And when most people sail class boats not only is it hard to find a yardstick class that has significant numbers, but because yardstick racing is not as common you are less likely to be sailing against a comparable boat of a different class, and therefore the fact that a similar design may have a small performance advantage over your own doesn't really matter. It could be that it's different in the UK. You have critical mass for Opens within a small area, especially because of that very nice habit of sailing in waters that we wouldn't (although that's partly because of population density one assumes) so people can buy a new or orphan boat knowing that they can easily get their class-racing fix at an Open whenever they want to. That doesn't apply elsewhere AFAIK due to distances. That may make performance improvements against other classes more enticing. As an example, in our old club when I wasn't class racing I was sailing either the Canoe or the Tasar in an open class of about 8 boats, and the only rival on yardstick was a 125 which rates slower than a 420. No fiddling about with the 125's speed was going to make it more attractive (which is not knocking the 125, which is a good boat) in the same way that (say) increasing the speed of a Phant racing against a few Lasers, OKs and Solos could. The yardstick and performance spread was too big for practical changes to matter. I know that many UK clubs have a wider spread in the entire yardstick fleet (I've seen results from one club that races A Class and Optis on yardstick ![]() Here, if an upgrade destroys class racing then it could come close to harming the class because pure speed is not something you really get to notice much. And it all reinforces itself because class racing becomes so important that people will just move into a class or create one. Re the speed of changes in SMODs - when boats last as well as reasonably modern ones do, even giving a years warning may not be significant given the lifetime of a boat. I think you're right about the issues of grandfathering but there could be other ways. New sails are problematic either way - I have no intention of buying new gear for my IC because it's now completely outmoded, but without new sails it's not worth racing much. Catch 22. It looks as though part of my long-delayed IC remodelling budget may go into the Cherub I agreed to partly fund for the kids while I was under the influence this weekend. I did demand a share rather than giving the cash away so at least I'll get to sail it sometimes!
Edited by Chris 249 - 06 May 13 at 12:20pm |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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I've certainly seen classes get into a sort of rule change frenzy where they change the rules what feels like every two or three years, and that seems to me a very bad thing. For sure there are equal and opposite errors. With a development class you can see classes stagnate, and be so well established in one corner of their box that there is no real devlopment going on. They can be successful like that, but seems to me you might as well be a one design: bit of a waste of a development class. And then of course there tends to be enormous effort devoted to really rather minor things, and even getting excited about proposals for ridiculously trivial rule changes... Of course if it works for the class, that's OK, its their ball, play with it how they like. It seems to me about every 20 or 25 years is frequent enough for rule changes: that gives you an opportunity to respond to developments in materials and techniques which really ought to influence the shape of the box you play in, but means that there's only really at most two populations of active boats, which is quite enough. Otherwise you descend into a sort of anarchy where no-one knows what boat is what. Interestingly we get the same kind of anarchy over here with the multi specification SMOD boats that come with half a dozen or more different rig combinations. No-one really knows what variety of Topper Topaz or whatever has turned up on the startline, nor what handicap to give it, nor even what class name to put down on the handicap return to the RYA... You're probably right about how in some ways the multiplicity of classes helps... In a bit of a breeze I can have pretty much as much fun racing an RS600 with my Canoe as I can racing another Canoe, and in lighter airs, well,maybe something slower is a challenge to beat. |
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RS400atC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 04 Dec 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 3011 |
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Seems to me that when a class (e.g) Merlins develops itself into a quasi-one design, the best thing to do might be to let it stay as it is if it's successful,step back and take a long hard look, then write a completely new set of rules. Then you'd get some genuine development, from clean sheets of paper not just relaxing a few constraints from the highly developed position. Of course you'd have to actually design better boats then, rather than just buy a new one with an advantage over the old ones due to the eased restrictions. |
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transient ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 21 Aug 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 715 |
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Not many classes publish the all up weight although there are a few
So how much weight can be saved if the class goes to carbon boom and mast + other non-hull alterations? |
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teamspot ![]() Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Nov 07 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Small correction: HAPCO Albacores are constructed using unidirectional fiber glass reinforcement, thermally formed foam core (i.e. NOT grid scored), and are infused with epoxy resin. Parts are bonded using Extreme Adhesives Methyl Methacrylate.
A few earlier hulls (8122, 8123, 8124, and 8125) were infused with vinyl ester resin. We used 3-Tex reinforcement vice unidirectional in one of the hulls as well. Can not recall which one. |
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transient ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 21 Aug 12 Online Status: Offline Posts: 715 |
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Update
Old thread I know......but FYI:
RS seem to have now changed their published hull weight for the RS200. They are now quoting the "fitted hull weight" @ 88 KGS. Not sure when they changed over from publishing the unfitted hull weight but a good move non the less. |
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Old Timer ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 05 Jun 13 Online Status: Offline Posts: 370 |
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That seems a far more honest way to go about things .... only taken them, what, 20 years to change it from the published figure of 72kg ...
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getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
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The problem with published hull weights is that they are like car manufacturer's 'curb weights' or similar such manufacturer supplied 'data' - I'd favour a system where a boat's weight is hull with all fittings, foils, spars and ropes (including sheets). Long as you keep the mast down, relatively straight forward to weigh consistently and reasonably quickly at regattas.
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