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Published Hull Weights

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Noah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04 May 13 at 12:05pm
To clarify what I meant - the class rules haven't changed, but the knowledge and expertise to exploit them has built over time. 'Twas the Aussies who built the first 'wide bow' Fireballs in the mid/late eighties I think, when they brought boats over for a UK worlds. But before that one Lawrie Smith (it is reported) decided that having a wet kite in the bow wasn't fast so ditched the chute in favour of bags and never looked back. Much like the Phantoms, Fireballs couldn't be made stiff / strong enough in GRP to be competitive. When foam & epoxy arrived that all changed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote maxibuddah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 May 13 at 5:59pm
Polyester phantoms were always made from foam sheets but bonded with polyester. The variances in weight came about from Jeff Vanderborght experimenting with the internal construction of nearly everyone one of the first few getting better with each one. By internal construction this meant bracing, etc to get the strength where it was needed. 

The plastic ones were competitive, but only due to the number of home built woodies and all of them taking on weight over time. The Claridge boats were still competitive for a very time after poly ones appeared but they were in the minority.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 13 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Chris 249

Down here, if a SMOD builder sold someone a boat advertised in the normal way as a SMOD at a time when they were about to drop the weight significantly, I think you'd have a good chance of getting damages against them.


That is, if you'll forgive me saying so, a very Australian attitude:-) Its clear to me that significant rule changes are looked at far more negatively in Australian sailing culture than in UK sailing culture, and I've seen it cause bad feeling over the years... There's this image in the UK of Australian sailors as mad radicals in Eighteens, and it always comes as a shock to the Poms when they find out that in some ways the Australian scene is far more conservative. In Aus our grandparents and great grandparents framed rules for some much more radical and extreme classes than in Britain, but over the years the Brit classes have changed those rules much more...

But on the specific point, there's usually something of a hiatus whilst these things are discussed: everyone knows its coming. I can't think of examples where the production line has gone from 60kg boats with no lead on Friday to 50kg boats on Monday.

Originally posted by Chris 249

What I can't work out is why boats that are affected by a weight reduction cannot be "grandfathered" in other ways.


Its an interesting idea, but I fear its impractical. Consider: if there's a radical rule change you end up with, for a good while, two populations of boats. And if you have an old boat you can at least aspire to be first old rules boat, and in a reasonably managed class there will be glassware.
But if you say, OK, we'll allow 5% more rag for old rules boats, what happens - everyone with an old boat, who'd like to be saving the money up for a new one is faced with buying a new set of rags that will only ever be any use on old boats because they're illegal on new design boats.
So last year's National Champs winning boat, unchanged, is not only uncompetitive in the new boat fleet, but even uncompetitive in the old boat fleet...

SORRY, RAMBLING POST... Shocked

Yep, it's a pretty Australian attitude, but it also seems to be a pretty American attitude (not just the USA, but all of it) and as far as I know a European attitude as well.  :-)

I think the British scene, wonderful as it is, is something unique that may only be able to survive in a small and densely-populated area with a lot of sailing grounds and a high sailing population. In a larger area it's very, very hard to get together significant numbers to an "Open", so people tend to sail class boats. And when most people sail class boats not only is it hard to find a yardstick class that has significant numbers, but because yardstick racing is not as common you are less likely to be sailing against a comparable boat of a different class, and therefore the fact that a similar design may have a small performance advantage over your own doesn't really matter.

It could be that it's different in the UK. You have critical mass for Opens within a small area, especially because of that very nice habit of sailing in waters that we wouldn't (although that's partly because of population density one assumes) so people can buy a new or orphan boat knowing that they can easily get their class-racing fix at an Open whenever they want to. That doesn't apply elsewhere AFAIK due to distances.

That may make performance improvements against other classes more enticing. As an example, in our old club when I wasn't class racing I was sailing either the Canoe or the Tasar in an open class of about 8 boats, and the only rival on yardstick was a 125 which rates slower than a 420. No fiddling about with the 125's speed was going to make it more attractive (which is not knocking the 125, which is a good boat) in the same way that (say) increasing the speed of a Phant racing against a few Lasers, OKs and Solos could. The yardstick and performance spread was too big for practical changes to matter. I know that many UK clubs have a wider spread in the entire yardstick fleet (I've seen results from one club that races A Class and Optis on yardstick Confused) but I think that they may have more diversity of boats that have vaguely similar performance, so an upgrade makes a difference. 

Here, if an upgrade destroys class racing then it could come close to harming the class because pure speed is not something you really get to notice much. And it all reinforces itself because class racing becomes so important that people will just move into a class or create one.

Re the speed of changes in SMODs - when boats last as well as reasonably modern ones do, even giving a years warning may not be significant given the lifetime of a boat.

I think you're right about the issues of grandfathering but there could be other ways. New sails are problematic either way - I have no intention of buying new gear for my IC because it's now completely outmoded, but without new sails it's not worth racing much. Catch 22.

It looks as though part of my long-delayed IC remodelling budget may go into the Cherub I agreed to partly fund for the kids while I was under the influence this weekend. I did demand a share rather than giving the cash away so at least I'll get to sail it sometimes!


Edited by Chris 249 - 06 May 13 at 12:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 13 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Yep, it's a pretty Australian attitude, but it also seems to be a pretty American attitude (not just the USA, but all of it) and as far as I know a European attitude as well.


I've certainly seen classes get into a sort of rule change frenzy where they change the rules what feels like every two or three years, and that seems to me a very bad thing.

For sure there are equal and opposite errors. With a development class you can see classes stagnate, and be so well established in one corner of their box that there is no real devlopment going on. They can be successful like that, but seems to me you might as well be a one design: bit of a waste of a development class. And then of course there tends to be enormous effort devoted to really rather minor things, and even getting excited about proposals for ridiculously trivial rule changes... Of course if it works for the class, that's OK, its their ball, play with it how they like.

It seems to me about every 20 or 25 years is frequent enough for rule changes: that gives you an opportunity to respond to developments in materials and techniques which really ought to influence the shape of the box you play in, but means that there's only really at most two populations of active boats, which is quite enough. Otherwise you descend into a sort of anarchy where no-one knows what boat is what.

Interestingly we get the same kind of anarchy over here with the multi specification SMOD boats that come with half a dozen or more different rig combinations. No-one really knows what variety of Topper Topaz or whatever has turned up on the startline, nor what handicap to give it, nor even what class name to put down on the handicap return to the RYA...

You're probably right about how in some ways the multiplicity of classes helps... In a bit of a breeze I can have pretty much as much fun racing an RS600 with my Canoe as I can racing another Canoe, and in lighter airs, well,maybe something slower is a challenge to beat.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 13 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by JimC

....With a development class you can see classes stagnate, and be so well established in one corner of their box that there is no real devlopment going on. They can be successful like that, but seems to me you might as well be a one design: bit of a waste of a development class....

 


Seems to me that when a class (e.g) Merlins develops itself into a quasi-one design, the best thing to do might be to let it stay as it is if it's successful,step back and take a long hard look, then write a completely new set of rules.
Then you'd get some genuine development, from clean sheets of paper not just relaxing a few constraints from the highly developed position.
Of course you'd have to actually design better boats then, rather than just buy a new one with an advantage over the old ones due to the eased restrictions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 13 at 12:00pm
Not many classes publish the all up weight although there are a few


So how much weight can be saved if the class goes to carbon boom and mast + other non-hull alterations? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote teamspot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 13 at 2:58pm
Small correction: HAPCO Albacores are constructed using unidirectional fiber glass reinforcement, thermally formed foam core (i.e. NOT grid scored), and are infused with epoxy resin. Parts are bonded using Extreme Adhesives Methyl Methacrylate.

A few earlier hulls (8122, 8123, 8124, and 8125) were infused with vinyl ester resin. We used 3-Tex reinforcement vice unidirectional in one of the hulls as well. Can not recall which one.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 15 at 11:33am
Update

Old thread I know......but FYI:

RS seem to have now changed their published hull weight for the RS200. They are now quoting the "fitted hull weight" @ 88 KGS.


Not sure when they changed over from publishing the unfitted hull weight but a good move non the less.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Feb 15 at 11:43am
Originally posted by transient

Update

Old thread I know......but FYI:

RS seem to have now changed their published hull weight for the RS200. They are now quoting the "fitted hull weight" @ 88 KGS.


Not sure when they changed over from publishing the unfitted hull weight but a good move non the less.


That seems a far more honest way to go about things .... only taken them, what, 20 years to change it from the published figure of 72kg ...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Feb 15 at 1:15pm
The problem with published hull weights is that they are like car manufacturer's 'curb weights' or similar such manufacturer supplied 'data' - I'd favour a system where a boat's weight is hull with all fittings, foils, spars and ropes (including sheets).  Long as you keep the mast down, relatively straight forward to weigh consistently and reasonably quickly at regattas.
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