Published Hull Weights
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10823
Printed Date: 09 Jul 25 at 8:19am Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Published Hull Weights
Posted By: transient
Subject: Published Hull Weights
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:00pm
I recently purchased a RS200. I haven't sailed it yet but I'm enjoying the bimbling to get it ready.......Recently there's been some boat weighing at the club, this was prompted by the variation in 2000 hull weights (our 2k sailors being uber competitive). Anyway long story short I thought I'd weigh the 200 hull c/w center board to see how it compaired with the RS published figure of 78 kgs
.......it weighed nearly 90.
I rang RS and they told me the 78 kg figure is for an unfitted hull, fitted it should weight 88-91 kgs.
So why publish the unfitted figure? a useless figure surely. What is the point?
Are all published hull weights unfitted weights?
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Replies:
Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:04pm
Originally posted by transient
I recently purchased a RS200. I haven't sailed it yet but I'm enjoying the bimbling to get it ready.......Recently there's been some boat weighing at the club, this was prompted by the variation in 2000 hull weights (our 2k sailors being uber competitive). Anyway long story short I thought I'd weigh the 200 hull c/w center board to see how it compaired with the RS published figure of 78 kgs
.......it weighed nearly 90.
I rang RS and they told me the 78 kg figure is for an unfitted hull, fitted it should weight 88-91 kgs.
So why publish the unfitted figure? a useless figure surely. What is the point?
Are all published hull weights unfitted weights?
|
Most hull weights are published fitted with sheets and centreboard/daggerboard in my experience. It depends on the class though.
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:07pm
Thats a very good question. Its a bit like the MPG figures car manufacturers publish. My car has a marketed combined figure of 53.3MPG. I mainly do motorway miles and due to previous run ins with the law i drive a very sensible speed and struggle to get 47mpg.
I do however agree, why publise the bare hull weight for an SMOD? Not sure how Devoti do it mind you, it could be the same way.
-------------
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:08pm
Originally posted by transient
So why publish the unfitted figure? a useless figure surely. What is the point? |
If one were being cynical one might suggest that it enables a lower published figure, but if you consider factory QA procedures then I reckon "just out of the moulds" is the best time to do the weighing: especially if you are going to discard any boats that have come out too light or too heavy.
With rule controlled classes its normal to have a "a stripped of all loose gear" figure for weight because it makes check weighing at Champs easier.
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:17pm
Finns are generally down to weight and the distribution of the weight is controlled with a gyration test, the average finnster is also very keen to know that their boat is right up against the gyration minimum parameter, so when the minimum weight was reduced by 3kg, it wasn't always possible to get down to the new weight by removing lead (due to it's distribution) and still have the boat swing properlywithin the class rules.
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: boatbasher
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:47pm
Originally posted by transient
I rang RS and they told me the 78 kg figure is for an unfitted hull, fitted it should weight 88-91 kgs.
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12kgs of fittings, what are they made of lead?
Something still does not add up.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by tgruitt
Most hull weights are published fitted with sheets and centreboard/daggerboard in my experience. It depends on the class though.
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That's what I thought: i.e. Enterpise @ 94 kgs......Now you know that a RS200 weighs nearly the same.
When I rang on a Saturday morning the bloke who answered gave the info quite freely and promptly.....After chatting about it later with mates I started to have doubts, I thought maybe he had picked up the 400 spec sheet by accident. So I rang back during the week and spoke to the regular sales guy. When I asked for the fitted hull weight he couldn't answer and went to the shop floor to find out, he rang back and confirmed that the 200 fitted hull weight was 88-91 kgs.
Jim, from a QC point of view it would make sense to weigh them all unfitted....But I can also see it from a marketing point of view. Call me a cynic. From a class racing point of view it doesn't make any difference, after all we're all in the same boat. But from an old fart with a bad back point of view it's very important when dragging the soddin' thing around on shingle 
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:56pm
The phantom hull weight is as per jims comment. All loose rope, rudder, mast and boom are removed, the rest is weighed and must be no less than 61kgs. If less then upto 3kgs of correctors can be fitted.
As for the 200 I guess that the all up weight includes the mast, boards, pole and other fittings so I reckon that would soon mount up
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by transient
Originally posted by tgruitt
Most hull weights are published fitted with sheets and centreboard/daggerboard in my experience. It depends on the class though.
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That's what I thought: i.e. Enterpise @ 94 kgs......Now you know that a RS200 weighs nearly the same.
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Well that is one definition of hull weight, but the 200 is a simple boat, I doubt there are 12kgs of fittings on a Merlin, where is the rest of the weight?
What we really need to know is the all up weight of the boat, rig, sails etc ... that is what impact performance and ease of handling on the beach.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 3:58pm
Originally posted by boatbasher
Originally posted by transient
I rang RS and they told me the 78 kg figure is for an unfitted hull, fitted it should weight 88-91 kgs.
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12kgs of fittings, what are they made of lead?
Something still does not add up. |
Fittings include: centre board, blocks, cleats, toe straps, bungee, hatches, bowsprite, spinny shute, shroud plates, screws rope and stickers + several short curly hairs that I found in mine
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:00pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah
The phantom hull weight is as per jims comment. All loose rope, rudder, mast and boom are removed, the rest is weighed and must be no less than 61kgs. If less then upto 3kgs of correctors can be fitted.
As for the 200 I guess that the all up weight includes the mast, boards, pole and other fittings so I reckon that would soon mount up |
the 200 88-91 figure is for a fitted (with CB) hull only.
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by transient
Originally posted by boatbasher
Originally posted by transient
I rang RS and they told me the 78 kg figure is for an unfitted hull, fitted it should weight 88-91 kgs.
|
12kgs of fittings, what are they made of lead?
Something still does not add up. |
Fittings include: centre board, blocks, cleats, toe straps, bungee, hatches, bowsprite, spinny shute, shroud plates, screws rope and stickers + several short curly hairs that I found in mine |
Wow ... so a bit more than "fittings" then ... what does it get up to when you add the rig?
I guess this is where the one-design & dev class owner gets a better deal, when you have a certificate you know exactly what you are getting and how much the bits weigh.
When you buy a SMOD you get what the marketing blub tells you which may not be what you expect as you have found out ... buyer beware I guess ... do your homework before you buy ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:04pm
It's pretty standard to weigh things that have stuff added to them later and publish the bare hull weight, we do it in sailboards. Fins and foils can weigh differing amounts, as can footstraps. So with all the garbage bits that get added to dinghies I can quite believe they weigh up to 12 kgs, that swivel thing that holds the main sheet is a good couple of kilos, tiller and rudder combos can weigh a couple of kilos difference depending who makes them, as I bet can the blocks.
So it's OK, what's not OK is that the damn things weigh more than thirty two kilos in the first place. If they were airline baggage they would be banned under health and safety terms. No dinghy should be permitted to weigh 50 kgs all up imv.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by L123456
when you have a certificate you know exactly what you are getting and how much the bits weigh. |
Don't reckon I'd go quite as far as that... Boat weights are notoriously difficult to compare because there are so many different configurations you can measure in them.
Very few classes measure all up weight, and even where you have vaguely comparable stripped weights there may be widely varying minimum weights for other things like foils, spars and so on, and then centreboard boats normally include the centreboard in measured weight, daggerboard boats normally exclude it, the list goes on...
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:18pm
Originally posted by iGRF
... that swivel thing that holds the main sheet is a good couple of kilos, |
Dunno what kit you are buying but it is about 400g.
http://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/item_detail.asp?prod_id=57&id=230 - http://www.allenbrothers.co.uk/item_detail.asp?prod_id=57&id=230
Before SMODs come along we all had an understanding of what "hull weight" was and it was a hull with fittings and control lines weighed dry, it was a ready to sail hull ... the "marketing men" have twisted this ...
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 4:58pm
It was a bit of man kit L19244 nothing you'd have any experience of mate...
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Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 5:18pm
You can have a SMOD and still measure the weight - Tasars have a hull + fittings (ie no spars, sheets or foils) of 68kg, which was IIRC the average of the fleet when the rule was created. My boat is a 1977 model that has been allowed to put on weight but is still carrying about 2.5kg of lead.
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by Chris 249
You can have a SMOD and still measure the weight - Tasars have a hull + fittings (ie no spars, sheets or foils) of 68kg, which was IIRC the average of the fleet when the rule was created. My boat is a 1977 model that has been allowed to put on weight but is still carrying about 2.5kg of lead. |
The Tasar was well ahead of its time. What other Smods have weight rules and publish their weights?
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:23pm
when we bought laser 2000s to add to the training fleet we were told that they were significantly lighter than the wayfarers we also use.
They are not. Again the published weight was bare hull only.
I doubt that the wayfarers are even remotely down to weight but I still thought it was a bit "naughty".
-------------
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 8:25pm
B14 class rules (2010 edition) specifies hull weight, and specifies that it includes permanently attached fittings. Rules are currently being revised to make weighing simpler (including wings, for a start)
Edit: of course, B14s share a fair bit else with Tasars...
------------- -_
Al
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 9:12pm
Musto's have published weights with and without fittings
------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by iGRF
It was a bit of man kit L19244 nothing you'd have any experience of mate... |
I was just correcting your statement that the 200 main jammer was 2kgs with referenced and linked facts ... mate ...
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by transient
.Recently there's been some boat weighing at the club, this was prompted by the variation in 2000 hull weights (our 2k sailors being uber competitive) |
I'd love to know the results of the 2k weighing session - there is so much mythology that has built up over the years about the early boats being lighter.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 10:56pm
I don't know of any 2000 myths. I sailed one a few times though, never again, too heavy on the beach for my liking.
As for the weighing session, I'll dig the facts out and report back.
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Posted By: carshalton fc
Date Posted: 15 Apr 13 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
Originally posted by transient
.Recently there's been some boat weighing at the club, this was prompted by the variation in 2000 hull weights (our 2k sailors being uber competitive) |
I'd love to know the results of the 2k weighing session - there is so much mythology that has built up over the years about the early boats being lighter. |
I have had experience first hand having my parents sail a 2000 and there is a big difference so much so that one couple sold their new boat and bought an old one then won the islands and nationals in the same year.
You may say it is only a 2000 and not a racing machine but who wants to go out there knowing that their boat side by side is slower before they have got off the beach.
------------- International 14 1503
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 8:28am
I guess it depends how much overweight the boat is, I know for a fact that a number of very successful Merlins have been around 10 kilos over back in the days of wooden boats.
Personally I think hull weight is a mind thing rather than a race wining/losing issue, provided of course you're talking about reasonable limits! I wouldn't worry about being around 10% over.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 8:38am
Originally posted by Paramedic
I guess it depends how much overweight the boat is, I know for a fact that a number of very successful Merlins have been around 10 kilos over back in the days of wooden boats.
Personally I think hull weight is a mind thing rather than a race wining/losing issue, provided of course you're talking about reasonable limits! I wouldn't worry about being around 10% over. |
I think wooden Merlins are a special case, as the wider ones were more powerful but hard to build down to weight. A few kilos might not hurt much, but in many classes small differences matter. There are SMOD sailors who weigh hulls and reject the heavy ones.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 8:40am
10 kilos sounds a hell of a lot. It wasn't unusual for Cherubs to be 5 or 10lbs over in the days of wood boats though, especially before the best building techniques were worked out in the 80s. The min weight was certainly regarded as somewhat aspirational raher than essential.
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Posted By: I luv Wight
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:09am
For an IC breakdown is : Hull 22.0 Fittings/string 6.3 Carriage 4.0 Daggerboard 1.4 Rudder/Cassette/Tiller 1.2 Tiller extension 0.3 Mast (rigged) 5.0 Boom 1.3 Sliding Seat 8.5 TOTAL 50.0 (= minimum weight as the rule ) Plus sails 4.2
= all up weight 54.2kg
------------- " rel="nofollow -
http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.bloodaxeboats.co.uk
Andy P
foiling Int Moth GBR3467
Freedom 21 Codling
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:11am
Doing well in races depends on getting many things right in my view. Some things are small, some are large......Hull weight variation is one of those things. If my dinghy were 10 Kgs over I would sell the boat.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:36am
Originally posted by L123456
Originally posted by iGRF
It was a bit of man kit L19244 nothing you'd have any experience of mate... |
I was just correcting your statement that the 200 main jammer was 2kgs with referenced and linked facts ... mate ... |
Well I wasn't referring to the 200, just generalising as is often the norm for me, fact is the one I referred to was a double kicker main assembly from Harken including the block which was certainly a kilo if it wasn't actually the 2 my natural tendency to exageration might have claimed.
However it still serves to highlight why only the bare hull weight gets published, if I chose to spec mine with a proper man bit and you used your girly one there is immediately a weight difference.
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Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 9:55am
So when buying a secondhand boat... how many people weigh it?
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:07am
Originally posted by Neptune
Musto's have published weights with and without fittings |
Found this on the Musto website:
http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/sub-pages/weight-breakdown.htm
It would be helpful if other companies did this rather than their own misleading definitions of "hull weight" ... this way you know what you are getting.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:20am
Originally posted by AlexM
So when buying a secondhand boat... how many people weigh it? |
Given that almost all the 2nd hand boats I've bought have dated back to the 70's or earlier, weighing them would be the least of my worries...
Having said that, the ancient GRP Solo I bought a while back left a huge groove in the water rather than planing and took 4 strong people to lift it. Suspect it wasn't very near min weight...
The equally old Lightning I replaced it with is barely heavier than a new one.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: L123456
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:22am
Originally posted by iGRF
Originally posted by L123456
Originally posted by iGRF
It was a bit of man kit L19244 nothing you'd have any experience of mate... |
I was just correcting your statement that the 200 main jammer was 2kgs with referenced and linked facts ... mate ... | Well I wasn't referring to the 200, just generalising as is often the norm for me, fact is the one I referred to was a double kicker main assembly from Harken including the block which was certainly a kilo if it wasn't actually the 2 my natural tendency to exageration might have claimed.
However it still serves to highlight why only the bare hull weight gets published, if I chose to spec mine with a proper man bit and you used your girly one there is immediately a weight difference. |
Seeing as we are discussing the discrepancy between the actual and published hull weight of the RS200 I don't see what relevance the weight of the fitting on your Alto has ... but just to keep to the facts.
The Harken Duocam Cam Base — Swivel is 454g and a ratchet block is 85g so a total of 539g ... http://www.harken.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?id=5171&taxid=4082 - http://www.harken.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?id=5171&taxid=4082 http://www.harken.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?id=4744 - http://www.harken.co.uk/productdetail.aspx?id=4744
"natural tendency to exageration" ... that is one phase for it ...
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Posted By: Steve411
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:23am
Originally posted by AlexM
So when buying a secondhand boat... how many people weigh it? |
I weighed a new boat when I had one (a Lark, years ago) before taking delivery. Now I have a 300, I've no idea how much it weighs and prefer not to know - just go out and sail it - the guy next to me may weigh +/- 10 kilos than me anyway.
------------- Steve B
RS300 411
https://www.facebook.com/groups/55859303803" rel="nofollow - RS300 page
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:24am
Originally posted by AlexM
So when buying a secondhand boat... how many people weigh it? |
I suppose some classes are more weigh critical but it's easy enough to do so I see no reason not to, just out of curiosity........2 sets of bathroom scales, 1 under the bow, 1 under the stern, add the 2 weights together. While it's in the garage over winter, might as well.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:31am
Originally posted by transient
but it's easy enough to do so I see no reason not to, ...2 sets of bathroom scales, |
Surprisingly inaccurate. Bathroom scales are often very poor at accurately measuring things that are not standing absolutely square on them. I gave up doing that a long time ago because the results were useless. Maybe there are modern digital wotsit bathroom scales which are more reliable, but if the figure changes if you rock about between toes and heels then don't bother trying.
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:36am
Originally posted by transient
Doing well in races depends on getting many things right in my view. Some things are small, some are large......Hull weight variation is one of those things. If my dinghy were 10 Kgs over I would sell the boat. |
2 years ago I attended a Finn reweighing / reswing testing session in New Orleans, some of the guys couldn't get the full 3kg of lead out of their boats and pass gyration testing, they were definitely selling for less than 2% of the hull weight!
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 10:44am
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by transient
but it's easy enough to do so I see no reason not to, ...2 sets of bathroom scales, |
Surprisingly inaccurate. Bathroom scales are often very poor at accurately measuring things that are not standing absolutely square on them. I gave up doing that a long time ago because the results were useless. Maybe there are modern digital wotsit bathroom scales which are more reliable, but if the figure changes if you rock about between toes and heels then don't bother trying. |
Indeed, that's why I put wooden blocks and padding between the boat and scales to make sure the weight was centred on the scales........adjusted the weight to 0 with blocks on scales. Then did it 2 or 3 times, same weight each time.
.....and I suspect it depends what sort of accuracy you're after. I wouldn't be happy if this method was used at a class weighing session and got a DSQ
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Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 12:43pm
I weighed my 1963 wooden Finn last year, it's 0.5kg over the original minimum weight. Unfortunately the minimum weight has been lowered several times since. I still thought it a very good result though.
------------- PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29
Warsash
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 12:50pm
We had a polyester phantom that was 14kgs overweight based on a designed weight of 61kgs. Definitely worth selling that one on, and no I can't remember the sail number
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 1:19pm
I think that might have been 1064 Maxi, it was at Hunts for a while. Looked nice but didn't go very well.....
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 1:42pm
it's really nice to have a certificate from the RYA showing my hull to be 3kg under weight without lead correctors.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 1:49pm
If that's the orange one then that may have been that weight in the end following repairs that were done to it but it wasn't the one I was thinking of. The one in question was white but that's all I can remember. Both were at our club at one time or another
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 2:37pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
it's really nice to have a certificate from the RYA showing my hull to be 3kg under weight without lead correctors. |
I think what this thread tells us is dont believe the hype, if you don't get a certificate weigh what you buy ...
I have calibrated a number of sets of bathroom scales over the years and as long as they are loaded square and static then they are typically very accurate; within 1kg.
This seems to be very much a case of buyer beware ...
It would be useful if people shared their own measurement here ...
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 2:38pm
Originally posted by maxibuddah
If that's the orange one then that may have been that weight in the end following repairs that were done to it but it wasn't the one I was thinking of. The one in question was white but that's all I can remember. Both were at our club at one time or another |
This one was white with a green vinyl waterline on it. Had a nice looking white painted carbon mast too.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by 2547
It would be useful if people shared their own measurement here ...
|
hmm, I think you'd find its discouraged to weigh before your hitch up and drive off from most SMOD manufacturers.... of course, if you really, really insisted that you are absolutely going to weigh your boat before leaving in the pre-sales chat, (thus being a very difficult minority customer  ) then the smarter cookies in the industry would probably ensure the one you were about to pick up was one of the ones bang on weight... especially if you had a rep for a notoriously boring posting streak on a popular internet sailing forum.
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Posted By: johnreekie1980
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 3:00pm
Having sailed various classes that insist that you strip some quite fixed equipment from boats for weighing I felt that the musto method of weighing the whole boat rigged was a excellent idea. There is a bit more error in this method as you have all the tolerances of equipment. Stripping the spliced control lines off a 49er was a right pain in the arse.
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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 3:03pm
Always check your boat very carefully when buying new.
I know of someone who went to collect their new Laser from our friends at Long Buckby.
They examined the hull (as I did when I collected mine many moons ago) and found a number of unacceptable flaws in the hull including several stress cracks in the gelcoat. Naturally they rejected the boat on the spot and then had a 2 hour row with LPE who eventually went and got another hull from the warehouse and made the pack up again.
Their reason for not wanting to replace it was because that was the hull that was assigned to him and it was a lot of work to assign him a different one....naturally he refused to the point of demanding a refund. They came round to his way of thinking.
------------- Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 3:35pm
and then some less attentive, less confident schmuck will have had the duff hull sold to them...
------------- -_
Al
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 5:07pm
In days of old, when I was a Lark measurer, I pitched up to run the tape over a new composite. The builder-owner proudly told me it was right down to weight.
"So let's weigh it first" I say, at which he starts fiddling with spanners and the centreplate bolts
"What are you doing?" I ask
"Taking the plate out"
"But we weigh it with the plate in" I insist
"Don't!" "Do"
So we check the rules. Result: I was right. Cue one crestfallen deck-fitter (a Lark Ally plate weighs about 7kg if I recall) Hull including plate minimum was 90kg in those days
Oops
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 6:28pm
At least it will have measured - till he re-decked it to lose the 7kg...
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 6:37pm
I think he sold that one on and did another PDQ
------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Apr 13 at 7:29pm
Originally posted by alstorer
and then some less attentive, less confident schmuck will have had the duff hull sold to them... |
Possibly, but you do (or did) see 2nds Lasers for sale (at a not much reduced price, IIRC) so it might have gone that route
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 21 Apr 13 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
Originally posted by transient
.Recently there's been some boat weighing at the club, this was prompted by the variation in 2000 hull weights (our 2k sailors being uber competitive) |
I'd love to know the results of the 2k weighing session - there is so much mythology that has built up over the years about the early boats being lighter. |
Originally posted by transient
I don't know of any 2000 myths. I sailed one a few times though, never again, too heavy on the beach for my liking.
As for the weighing session, I'll dig the facts out and report back. |
OK, The facts are: 2 2k hulls were weighed on the same scales and in the same manner i.e. suspended from the ceiling on scales.
One 2k was a very early purple hulled boat, sail number in the region of 2500. It weighed 128 kgs.
The second 2k hull was 18 months old and weighed 138 kgs.
....as I said earlier, I know nothing of any 2k myths. I wonder what the RS target weight will be?
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 21 Apr 13 at 6:07pm
Thanks for that; the difference is not so huge, after all.
I think the theory always existed that the oldest ones were quicker, but it was given considerable momentum when Laser changed their info for the 2k from 100 to 140 kg bare hull weight after a few years. An RS boat on 100kg would be something indeed, though I very much doubt they'd go that far.
What amuses (and frustrates) me is the way the class is so anal about not allowing small rigging mods, which would significantly improve the boat in my view, but which are as nothing speedwise to even just 10kg variation in hull weight. Who knows what the full spread of weights is?
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 21 Apr 13 at 9:03pm
I feel that about the Laser 4000 too. I'd object to not being able to use a tapered sheet if I felt like making one. It's more understandable perhaps with the 2k, as many boats were owned by organisations, and it helps make a borrowed boat competitive. 120-odd kg seems a lot for a smallish boat, but the variation is more worrying if you want to take the racing seriously.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Apr 13 at 9:19pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
...not allowing small rigging mods, which would significantly improve the boat in my view, |
Thing is those sorts of things add an awful lot of hassle to boat ownership for the non bimblers, which is surely their target market. If you want to optimise a boat to the death, you should at least be in one of the multi manufacturer classes.
Although it doesn't suit me I can empathise strongly with people who just want to go sailing and don't want to fiddle with the boat, and its good there should be classes for them. Every little tweak you permit makes the boat more hostile for the non-fiddler. I think there's going to be a sense in which it seems: if you don't do the fiddling you may as well not bother, which for many I fear means they won't bother...
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 21 Apr 13 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by JimC
Every little tweak you permit makes the boat more hostile for the non-fiddler. I think there's going to be a sense in which it seems: if you don't do the fiddling you may as well not bother, which for many I fear means they won't bother... |
So moving a ratchet block from the swivel jammer on the hull to the boom to permit off-the-boom sheeting - something you could do to a club boat in 5 minutes if you wished - would put people off racing a class, whereas knowing their boat may be 10-20kg heavier won't have put them off in the least?
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 8:03am
Originally posted by maxibuddah
We had a polyester phantom that was 14kgs overweight based on a designed weight of 61kgs. Definitely worth selling that one on, and no I can't remember the sail number |
Don't know if you remember but at the 2010 nationals every Phantom entered was weighed.
There was a polyester one there that came in at 90kgs (can tell you the name but not the number!), same as a couple of wooden ones!!
At the time the brand new Ovington ones were 3-4kgs overweight, but 12 months later a new Ovington one was weighed and it was 3-4 kgs under.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 8:22am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
So moving a ratchet block from the swivel jammer on the hull to the boom to permit off-the-boom sheeting - something you could do to a club boat in 5 minutes if you wished - would put people off racing a class, whereas knowing their boat may be 10-20kg heavier won't have put them off in the least? |
The success of the RS 200 and 400, not to mention the Laser as a racing class would appear to bear that theory out.
Throw the roto-tubs into the mix and it's painfully obvious that an off-the-shelf-get-in-and-go-race class has a definite appeal to a section of our market. The majority that are bought privately go to new sailors who may move on to what we perceive as a "real" class after a couple of years.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 8:39am
Why are the classes not "real", Paramedic?
If more people are sailing them, more people buying them, doesn't that make "our" world the unreal one?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 9:05am
Originally posted by Phil_1193
Originally posted by maxibuddah
We had a polyester phantom that was 14kgs overweight based on a designed weight of 61kgs. Definitely worth selling that one on, and no I can't remember the sail number | Don't know if you remember but at the 2010 nationals every Phantom entered was weighed.There was a polyester one there that came in at 90kgs (can tell you the name but not the number!), same as a couple of wooden ones!!At the time the brand new Ovington ones were 3-4kgs overweight, but 12 months later a new Ovington one was weighed and it was 3-4 kgs under. |
The 14kg one was weighed at Llandudno nats some years back. Yes I was at some Phil but I didn't hear about that one, that's even more impressive. Must have been down to repairs, what did they use? Lead sheets?
If an ovi was 4kgs under how did they sort the correctors on that, you are only allowed 3kgs.brass fitting or two on the foredeck I suppose
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 11:07am
Originally posted by Paramedic
Throw the roto-tubs into the mix and it's painfully obvious that an off-the-shelf-get-in-and-go-race class has a definite appeal to a section of our market. The majority that are bought privately go to new sailors who may move on to what we perceive as a "real" class after a couple of years. |
Indeed, "...move on..." when they discover the truth about the hull weight variation, maybe. Sort of upsets the "I don't care how what boat I sail so long as yours is just as bad" strict one-design mentality.
That is an unduly harsh assessment, of course, but I can only wonder at people for whom racing is more important than the sensation of sailing. They might almost be better off playing a video game - on identical PC's, of course!
Back on topic, those Phantom variations are significantly greater as a percentage of displacement than the 2k ones. The Streaker class shows a hull weight variation from 36kg to 71 - nearly double!: http://www.streaker-class.org.uk/boatweight.php - http://www.streaker-class.org.uk/boatweight.php
Buyer beware 
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 11:49am
I am also amazed by the weight differential in recent Rooster Streakers from 48kg to 53 kg weighed at the 2008 nationals.
If I owned number 1657 I would be sending it back to Rooster! It is not as if it is an old boat at that event.
------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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Posted By: Chris Turner
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 11:58am
For the record, Ovington became the licensed builder for the Phantom in March of this year.All previous hulls were built to a weight not exceeding 55kg as requested, this allowed the customer 6kg for fittings and centreboard.It was later found that this was not enough as there was quite a range in fit outs and centreboard weights.The supplied bare hull weight was then dropped a few kg's...For the past year or so all boats should be fitted either on or below class weight depending on fit out.Interestingly we found a 2kg range between centreboards from different suppliers...
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
That is an unduly harsh assessment, of course, but I can only wonder at people for whom racing is more important than the sensation of sailing. They might almost be better off playing a video game - on identical PC's, of course!
Back on topic, those Phantom variations are significantly greater as a percentage of displacement than the 2k ones. The Streaker class shows a hull weight variation from 36kg to 71 - nearly double!: http://www.streaker-class.org.uk/boatweight.php - http://www.streaker-class.org.uk/boatweight.php
Buyer beware  |
Bloody hell, I'm (nearly  ) speechless........nearly as bad as the vagaries in handicap racing.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:17pm
Having purchased SMODs new, I can quite imagine NOT wanting them publicly weighed- ever, at all and never collated in a list like that. All that serves to do is reduce the cost for second hand owners....
Devaluing some of the boats, past any dates of warranty, with little recourse to the OEM outside of 'goodwill' is not good for anyone. The end result will be price increases... not good.
I now sail a class which is weighed at measurement. That's fine, it works and my RYA Measurement Cert is as much a part of the boat as the thwart and deck, so this passes to the new owner when/if I sell it... but I wouldn't want it in a SMOD outside of the very top level of equipment-supplied ISAF events, that's just not part of the 'SMOD game' imho.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:32pm
I suspect people can get too het up about weight.. If you aren''t weighing your sailing gear and optimising it for the (almost) bare minimum in light airs races/maximum in strong wind races and dieting to be the 'perfect' weight for your class there probably isn't much point in anicking about the odd few kg extra on the boat. There are an awful lot of things that score higher in my list of boatspeed priorities.
I suspect the biggest advantage of not weighing the boats in an SMOD class is that no-one gets pysched out by boat weights...
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:33pm
Come to think of it, we have just got examples of both ends of the Streaker weight range at WSC (owned by a couple, who are still talking so far as I know since 'he' bought the lighter one).
No need to weigh them - the 38kg one rolls about in light wind after it comes off its trolley, the other sits there like a raft even in in half a gale! Lighter hulls do pay a stability penalty.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by JimC
I suspect the biggest advantage of not weighing the boats in an SMOD class is that no-one gets pysched out by boat weights... |
But once in the know about such matters, they will always wonder and worry...
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:36pm
I don't think I ever realised the value of the work that goes into the Finn class until I read this thread, the builders and measurers produce a very consistant result which upto this point I thought all other classes enjoyed. There really should be a little more quality control through out the various classes, especially where a one design is being marketed or else it isn't one.
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road
I don't think I ever realised the value of the work |
Another POV would be that the Finn class are so anal about this stuff that they probably all have haemorrhoids... A bad case of Olympicitis that the rest of us are happy to avoid...
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Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac
Lighter hulls do pay a stability penalty. |
And I suppose that varies depending on where the extra weight is.
The 2 2ks that I saw weighed were hung from the same points, the heavier one hung more nose down than the lighter one.
It probably doesn't pay psychologically to get too hung up on weights...but when folk fit tapered sheets, bearing blocks, 400 grit (or whatever they use) the hull, lube up the shute, quibble about 10 py points, all of which make a few seconds difference......then an extra 10 kgs is quite a biggy.
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Posted By: scotsfinn
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 12:52pm
I'd agree with TR and disagree with Jim C. The pleasure of a Finn is that the rules are so well controlled that most owners, who are not of course Olympians, can enjoy really close competion in a variety of ages of boats knowing they are as close in terms of weights and balance as any class in the world. Even better they get a great mag telling what is happening, but really never have to get involved in class politics. In my view the Finn Class should be a model for all ......... That should extract a few more posts I'll bet ....
------------- Largs Sailing Club. D-Zero GBR 57, B14 744
www.blueseaconsultingllp.com
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 1:02pm
Surely the Finns have the best of all worlds - they can bimble to their heart's content, safe in the knowledge that important stuff like huge variations in hull weight is all being taken care of centrally.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 1:04pm
Thanks to Chris's work at ovi's phantoms are pretty damn good, like the latter vandercraft ones. Always difficult when people can fit out a hull themselves, how can you control that. Some people will find theirs will be over, some under. You ain't going to please everyone.
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road
I don't think I ever realised the value of the work that goes into the Finn class until I read this thread, the builders and measurers produce a very consistant result which upto this point I thought all other classes enjoyed. There really should be a little more quality control through out the various classes, especially where a one design is being marketed or else it isn't one. |
Is it worth twenty grand though? That is, after all what we're talking about- new boat prices indexed with the depreciation on that investment.
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 1:49pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
Originally posted by Thunder Road
I don't think I ever realised the value of the work that goes into the Finn class until I read this thread, the builders and measurers produce a very consistant result which upto this point I thought all other classes enjoyed. There really should be a little more quality control through out the various classes, especially where a one design is being marketed or else it isn't one. |
Is it worth twenty grand though? That is, after all what we're talking about- new boat prices indexed with the depreciation on that investment. |
A new Finn is 20K????? 
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 2:13pm
and a Ferrari FF is £250k.... one looks a lot more sellable to the 'Mrs collective' as a mid life crisis to me 
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 3:50pm
£15K should bring you a new state of the art piece of Finn kit, but this level of consistency should be available in all classes, surely this level of engineering is not an unreasonable ambition for any boat since the dug out canoe stopped being the norm. It is a case of pride and controlled workmanship & engineering.
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:12pm
I thought you need a heavy wind and light wind mast/sail combo for a Finn? That's what one of the Finn boys was saying around our way not so long ago...
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Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:30pm
I think you find a mast you like and keep it, two masts can be measured in at regattas but most people go with their favourite in all weathers and keep the other as a spare. The problem with two is the confusion with settings and getting caught out with weather changes on the water, better to know how to adjust the rig to suit the conditions. It is bad enough having to nurse a fragile lightweight sail round the course if the wind comes up without throwing an unsuitable mast at the problem as well. I made the mistake of selling my best mast years ago, thought I could do better, well I couldn't
------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:31pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road
£15K should bring you a new state of the art piece of Finn kit, but this level of consistency should be available in all classes, surely this level of engineering is not an unreasonable ambition for any boat since the dug out canoe stopped being the norm. It is a case of pride and controlled workmanship & engineering. |
Originally posted by scotsfinn
I'd agree with TR and disagree with Jim C. The pleasure of a Finn is that the rules are so well controlled that most owners, who are not of course Olympians, can enjoy really close competion in a variety of ages of boats knowing they are as close in terms of weights and balance as any class in the world. Even better they get a great mag telling what is happening, but really never have to get involved in class politics. In my view the Finn Class should be a model for all ......... That should extract a few more posts I'll bet .... |
All very laudable, right up until the bit where they hang a bit of old lancaster bomber wing down the middle of it, with the foil shape ground out of it to fit in the slot... Oh and to double the weight by the sound of it.
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Posted By: tgruitt
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by iGRF
All very laudable, right up until the bit where they hang a bit of old lancaster bomber wing down the middle of it, with the foil shape ground out of it to fit in the slot... Oh and to double the weight by the sound of it.  |
Something has happened in my brain, for once GRF, I think I agree with you!
------------- Needs to sail more...
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by Thunder Road
I think you find a mast you like and keep it, two masts can be measured in at regattas but most people go with their favourite in all weathers and keep the other as a spare. The problem with two is the confusion with settings and getting caught out with weather changes on the water, better to know how to adjust the rig to suit the conditions. It is bad enough having to nurse a fragile lightweight sail round the course if the wind comes up without throwing an unsuitable mast at the problem as well. I made the mistake of selling my best mast years ago, thought I could do better, well I couldn't |
That makes more sense than the arms race discussion we had down the club when I mildly mentioned what a damn shame it was there were no Finns left anymore.
No one seems to remember what happened, other than it died over a few seasons never to be seen of again. It wasn't as if the Phants came along as a 'cheaper alternative', but one guy said the cost put people off. I'd take a punt on the fact that the late 70's economic climate (not so dissimilar from today) put a lot of people off sailing and sports in general, rather than it being a Finn specific issue at our club. But I wasn't around then, so can't comment with any first hand nostalgic bias suitable for an internet forum.
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Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:53pm
relatively a 70's finn would have been much cheaper surely.....simpler aluminium rigs and dacron sails
------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor
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Posted By: marke
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 4:56pm
I recall the DWSC Finn fleet when I was a nipper in the mid 70's. It really was a sight to behold with great turnouts and competiton EVERY weekend (and it wasn't just big guys - there were lots of normal size people (admittedly wearing weight jackets). My recollection was that Mike Astley was the reason that happened - he put so much effort into building the fleet (loaning his spare boat, coaching, organising personal handicap racing (sail the first beat, wait at the first mark for X seconds and then return to the race), even to clearing the weed using a serrated drag and his jag X12). I benefited as well as he did a lot to enthuse the youngsters in the club - certainly can still remember him teaching me to gybe down a slalom course in a F5 that (of course) he installed.
The growth of the laser may have had something to do with the slow decline of the Finn at DWSC, but I think it was probably Mike finally getting too old in his late 60s to sail a Finn to the standard he wanted.
Best way to build a fleet - find a Mike Astley.
Mark
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by Neptune
relatively a 70's finn would have been much cheaper surely.....simpler aluminium rigs and dacron sails |
Nothing is ever cheap about a multiple supplier Olympic Class. Everything is always the best it can possibly be within the letter of the rules.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by JimC
Originally posted by Neptune
relatively a 70's finn would have been much cheaper surely.....simpler aluminium rigs and dacron sails |
Nothing is ever cheap about a multiple supplier Olympic Class. Everything is always the best it can possibly be within the letter of the rules. |
Olympic level is always going to cost, but the boat probably pales compared to the other campaign costs. I thought most 'old' classes were properly controlled, with many boats getting measured and weighed at big events? Merlins are very organised with check weighing, the min weight includes the board and some of the string, they have a 3 point scale which takes the trolley wheels and bow, while the boom and mainsheet etc are lifted by helpers. Then the boat is lifted and the scales weigh the trolley to deduct that. A few minutes per boat and accurate enough to deter chancers. Of course when built, the boat would have been measured and the weight of its correctors recorded, and these should not be reduced without a formal re-weighing and ammended cert. I thought all serious non-smods were like that!
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Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 6:57pm
The Contender is like that. Bare hull Measured at birth and then at any international events thereafter; with the Cert changed only by a recognised measurer. All the accessories go through the same process. Not too difficult to get them all on weight with such a generous minimum!
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 7:22pm
Firefly similar to that, too, and the British Moth.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 7:24pm
Originally posted by marke
I recall the DWSC Finn fleet when I was a nipper in the mid 70's. It really was a sight to behold with great turnouts and competiton EVERY weekend (and it wasn't just big guys - there were lots of normal size people (admittedly wearing weight jackets). My recollection was that Mike Astley was the reason that happened - he put so much effort into building the fleet (loaning his spare boat, coaching, organising personal handicap racing (sail the first beat, wait at the first mark for X seconds and then return to the race), even to clearing the weed using a serrated drag and his jag X12). I benefited as well as he did a lot to enthuse the youngsters in the club - certainly can still remember him teaching me to gybe down a slalom course in a F5 that (of course) he installed.The growth of the laser may have had something to do with the slow decline of the Finn at DWSC, but I think it was probably Mike finally getting too old in his late 60s to sail a Finn to the standard he wanted.Best way to build a fleet - find a Mike Astley.Mark
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Thanks Mark - he sounds like a great fellow. I somehow feel that twitface and blogging has become a rather pale alternative to colourful, inspiring characters of real life.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 9:00pm
Originally posted by Rupert
Why are the classes not "real", Paramedic?If more people are sailing them, more people buying them, doesn't that make "our" world the unreal one?
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I think you've taken that comment slightly out of context ;)
The point was that as people learn more about sailing and how/why boats work they are likely to change class to one that offers better racing/stiffer hull/better performance to match changing aspirations.
I don't see any of the rotomould boats fitting the requirements of the enthusiastic racer with the obvious exception of the Feva for juniors.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 9:08pm
Sounds about right to me - although as a completely versatile boat (and not bad in shandycapping) the vago one up doesn't look too bad.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 9:17pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey
Sounds about right to me - although as a completely versatile boat (and not bad in shandycapping) the vago one up doesn't look too bad. |
We had one on demo when they first came out and I thought they had huge potential.
In the 4 years that have passed I think ive seen two racing and unfortunately this was at different events years apart!
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Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 9:21pm
If boats are identical apart from one being 10kgs lighter I know which one I want ... seems a simple case of check what you are buying.
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by Paramedic
Originally posted by pondmonkey
Sounds about right to me - although as a completely versatile boat (and not bad in shandycapping) the vago one up doesn't look too bad. |
We had one on demo when they first came out and I thought they had huge potential.
In the 4 years that have passed I think ive seen two racing and unfortunately this was at different events years apart! |
I saw a couple being raced down in South Cerney- to be honest, they changed my prejudice against 'their ilk'. A bit like a grown up Feva, and there's nothing wrong with a Feva - great little boat!
I also saw one at a few SJ events- singlehanded, kited and not capsizing everywhere. Plenty of performance... I'd almost be tempted myself
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 22 Apr 13 at 10:57pm
Have you tried trapezing a Vago?
We had one for a week's demo at WSC. By the second weekend, nobody wanted to sail it any more. The last to try were a pair of guys who regularly trapezed in club racing but declared it was hopeless on the Vago. Curious to try the boat, we found this to be an exaggeration, but my crew did indeed fall over while on the wire (onto me!). Problems all to do with the deep cockpit and slippery sides from what I recall.
Edit: I'd always assumed that consistency of weight would be a strength of rotomoulds, but I read recently that even with them variations could be large. I can't imagine how, given that it is only a question of weighing out a quantity of plastic beads to chuck into the mould...
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC
http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class
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