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Mark rounding

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mark rounding
    Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 3:04pm

Hang on 1 moment guys she says the other boat sailed in to her transom.....surely that means she must have been clear ahead at some point and as she was inside boat how could she be in the wrong....

Were I on the PC I would find it hard to DSQ the boat that was clear ahead when the other boat came from behind and hit the transom.

Don't have a rule book to hand (or the time to look it up on the ISAF site) but as long as Hannah was sailing within the rules (and from her description she was IMO) then the other boat must be at fault.

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HannahJ View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 11:13pm
I think I was actually clear ahead before the mark (how did you guess I was the inside boat!) and called for water as you do. Not sure that makes much difference though.  So it seems that as I was within about 1.5 boat lengths of the mark they should still be giving me room to complete my turn onto the new course? Not to speak of a gentlemanly call of "windward" to let me know of their intention to tack... I could only watch them getting closer and closer and didn't have thinking time to do anything about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 12:58am

Originally posted by HannahJ

I think I was actually clear ahead before the mark

That counts for little. What matters is whether you were clear ahead or inside overlapped when the first boat reached the zone (rule 18.2(b)).  If so subsequent breaking and making of overlaps don't count, unless you tack (rule 18.2(c)).

Originally posted by HannahJ

(how did you guess I was the inside boat!)

Context is everything Grasshopper.  Would you describe yourself as 'little idiots'?

Originally posted by HannahJ

 and called for water as you do.

Why?  The real utility of a hail at a mark is to establish in both boat's minds whether or not there is an overlap at the zone, on the assumption that you both know what to do once that is established.  You need to make the hail (Overlap, No Overlap) just before the zone.  Hailing once inside the zone doesn't do anything much except increase the noise-level.

Originally posted by HannahJ

 Not sure that makes much difference though.

Indeed it makes no difference whether you are clear ahead or inside overlapped, or whether you hail or not:  you are still entitled to mark-room.

Originally posted by HannahJ

So it seems that as I was within about 1.5 boat lengths of the mark they should still be giving me room to complete my turn onto the new course?

No, once you are past the mark by as much as 1 or more lengths, you no longer need room to sail your proper course at mark, and you lose your exoneration:  if you don't keep clear of a leeward boat you break rule 11.  If a boat clear astern hits you, they break rule 12.

Originally posted by HannahJ

Not to speak of a gentlemanly call of "windward" to let me know of their intention to tack.

Why would you expect another boat to disclose their tactical intentions to you?

'Opportunity' was deleted from the rules long ago to remove the implication that a leeward boat had to hail.  Leeward's obligation is, if changing course, to give you room to keep clear (rule 16)  nothing more.  On the other hand Astern's obligation whether changing course or not is to keep clear of you (rule 12).

Originally posted by HannahJ

I could only watch them getting closer and closer and didn't have thinking time to do anything about it.

If it's clear ahead/clear astern rape, then you probably can't do anything about it, but if the other boat is coming up with a leeward overlap, the protest committee is going to want to hear from you that you did something  to meet your rule 14 obligation to avoid contact:  either you changed course to windward to maintain separation, or when contact seemed likely, you bore away hard to minimise impact. Rule 14 says you can't just sit there and watch it happen.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 12:18pm
They were clear astern before they hit me - if I'd have born away they'd have hit the middle of my transom instead of the corner. Admittedly I should probably have done something sooner but under the circumstances it wasn't possible - tacking off would probably have had the same effect as bearing away.  It was literally just after the mark. In future I'll ignore what's behind and with my new sails I should be able to point higher anyway!

Thanks for the explanations although it seems to be a bit of a debatable point.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 5:14pm

Originally posted by HannahJ

They were clear astern before they hit me - if I'd have born away they'd have hit the middle of my transom instead of the corner. Admittedly I should probably have done something sooner but under the circumstances it wasn't possible - tacking off would probably have had the same effect as bearing away.  It was literally just after the mark. In future I'll ignore what's behind and with my new sails I should be able to point higher anyway!

Thanks for the explanations although it seems to be a bit of a debatable point.

Seems a clear rule 12 infringement by the other boat to me!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 09 at 6:03pm
Yes, having found the rules on the ISAF site it does look like a rule 12 infringement - however they were clear astern and a little to leeward as a result of going round the mark outside me. Does that make a difference?

Also I'm unsure as to what "at" the mark refers to, or as the rules put it "in the zone". I presume this means the 3 boat length rule, and that it extends for 360 degrees around the mark. Have I understood correctly?

Edit: Could someone please explain rule 18.2 (e) to me: how would an outside boat be "unable to give mark-room" - does this refer to obstructions on the other side of the mark, eg. land? And how would a boat establish an overlap from anything other than clear astern?

Edit2: "proper course": when going upwind, surely there is more than one of these?


Edited by HannahJ
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Jun 09 at 6:35pm
If there was a queue of other boats to the outside of the boat, the delay in response of all the other boats might leave them unable to giver room.
You can establish an overlap by gybing into it, or if the separation was enough also by heading up from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 7:50am
normally a big raft of boats prevents prompt response, but also a physical obstruction, capsized boat or another right of way boat (say a yacht not racing on starboard at the leeward mark) would also apply.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by HannahJ

Yes, having found the rules on the ISAF site it does look like a rule 12 infringement - however they were clear astern and a little to leeward as a result of going round the mark outside me. Does that make a difference?
No, any boat behind the line across your transom at right angles to the centreline of your boat is Clear Astern, if on the same tack or on a downwind course.
Originally posted by HannahJ

Also I'm unsure as to what "at" the mark refers to, or as the rules put it "in the zone".
'At the mark' and 'in the zone (yes, 3 length zone, 'zone' in italics, so see Definitions) are very different. After a boat 'reaches' the zone, she then sails 'to the mark', then sails [around the mark] 'at the mark'. If you want to get on top of the rules, you need to read a bit. Bryan Willis' book is excellent. For discussion of 'to' and 'at' the mark, I suggest you read the ISAF Discussion Paper
Originally posted by HannahJ

I presume this means the 3 boat length rule, and that it extends for 360 degrees around the mark. Have I understood correctly?Edit: Could someone please explain rule 18.2 (e) to me: how would an outside boat be "unable to give mark-room" - does this refer to obstructions on the other side of the mark, eg. land? And how would a boat establish an overlap from anything other than clear astern?Edit2: "proper course": when going upwind, surely there is more than one of these?
On a leg with neither side favoured, there will indeed be a port tack proper course and a starboard tack proper course. This LTW Article on Proper Course should help.


Edited by Brass
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 6:28pm
Is the overlap not from the the back of the rudder? 'aftermost point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal position'
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