Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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jeffers ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Hang on 1 moment guys she says the other boat sailed in to her transom.....surely that means she must have been clear ahead at some point and as she was inside boat how could she be in the wrong.... Were I on the PC I would find it hard to DSQ the boat that was clear ahead when the other boat came from behind and hit the transom. Don't have a rule book to hand (or the time to look it up on the ISAF site) but as long as Hannah was sailing within the rules (and from her description she was IMO) then the other boat must be at fault. |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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HannahJ ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Jul 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 861 |
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I think I was actually clear ahead before the mark (how did you guess I was the inside boat!) and called for water as you do. Not sure that makes much difference though. So it seems that as I was within about 1.5 boat lengths of the mark they should still be giving me room to complete my turn onto the new course? Not to speak of a gentlemanly call of "windward" to let me know of their intention to tack... I could only watch them getting closer and closer and didn't have thinking time to do anything about it.
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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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That counts for little. What matters is whether you were clear ahead or inside overlapped when the first boat reached the zone (rule 18.2(b)). If so subsequent breaking and making of overlaps don't count, unless you tack (rule 18.2(c)).
Context is everything Grasshopper. Would you describe yourself as 'little idiots'?
Why? The real utility of a hail at a mark is to establish in both boat's minds whether or not there is an overlap at the zone, on the assumption that you both know what to do once that is established. You need to make the hail (Overlap, No Overlap) just before the zone. Hailing once inside the zone doesn't do anything much except increase the noise-level.
Indeed it makes no difference whether you are clear ahead or inside overlapped, or whether you hail or not: you are still entitled to mark-room.
No, once you are past the mark by as much as 1 or more lengths, you no longer need room to sail your proper course at mark, and you lose your exoneration: if you don't keep clear of a leeward boat you break rule 11. If a boat clear astern hits you, they break rule 12.
Why would you expect another boat to disclose their tactical intentions to you? 'Opportunity' was deleted from the rules long ago to remove the implication that a leeward boat had to hail. Leeward's obligation is, if changing course, to give you room to keep clear (rule 16) nothing more. On the other hand Astern's obligation whether changing course or not is to keep clear of you (rule 12).
If it's clear ahead/clear astern rape, then you probably can't do anything about it, but if the other boat is coming up with a leeward overlap, the protest committee is going to want to hear from you that you did something to meet your rule 14 obligation to avoid contact: either you changed course to windward to maintain separation, or when contact seemed likely, you bore away hard to minimise impact. Rule 14 says you can't just sit there and watch it happen. |
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HannahJ ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Jul 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 861 |
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They were clear astern before they hit me - if I'd have born away they'd have hit the middle of my transom instead of the corner. Admittedly I should probably have done something sooner but under the circumstances it wasn't possible - tacking off would probably have had the same effect as bearing away. It was literally just after the mark. In future I'll ignore what's behind and with my new sails I should be able to point higher anyway!
Thanks for the explanations although it seems to be a bit of a debatable point. |
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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
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Garry ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
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Seems a clear rule 12 infringement by the other boat to me! |
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Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
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HannahJ ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 23 Jul 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 861 |
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Yes, having found the rules on the ISAF site it does look like a rule 12 infringement - however they were clear astern and a little to leeward as a result of going round the mark outside me. Does that make a difference?
Also I'm unsure as to what "at" the mark refers to, or as the rules put it "in the zone". I presume this means the 3 boat length rule, and that it extends for 360 degrees around the mark. Have I understood correctly? Edit: Could someone please explain rule 18.2 (e) to me: how would an outside boat be "unable to give mark-room" - does this refer to obstructions on the other side of the mark, eg. land? And how would a boat establish an overlap from anything other than clear astern? Edit2: "proper course": when going upwind, surely there is more than one of these? Edited by HannahJ |
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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
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Lukepiewalker ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341 |
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If there was a queue of other boats to the outside of the boat, the delay in response of all the other boats might leave them unable to giver room.
You can establish an overlap by gybing into it, or if the separation was enough also by heading up from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward. |
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
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Garry ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 536 |
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normally a big raft of boats prevents prompt response, but also a physical obstruction, capsized boat or another right of way boat (say a yacht not racing on starboard at the leeward mark) would also apply.
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Garry
Lark 2252, Contender 298 www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk |
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Brass ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Edited by Brass |
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Lukepiewalker ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 May 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1341 |
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Is the overlap not from the the back of the rudder? 'aftermost point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal position'
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch" Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air" Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile" |
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