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Mark rounding

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5625
Printed Date: 26 Jun 25 at 5:48pm
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Topic: Mark rounding
Posted By: HannahJ
Subject: Mark rounding
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 2:34pm
Probably an easy answer, but I don't have a rule book on me.

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Thanks


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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail



Replies:
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:23pm
Mark-Room: Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.

-------------
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Scooby_simon
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:28pm

Originally posted by HannahJ

Probably an easy answer, but I don't have a rule book on me.

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Thanks

 

Two questions there Hannah!

 

1, As above you have mark room to make a rounding and that includes getting to close hauled.

2, If the boat below can sail closer, you're stuffed and need to tack away! 



-------------
Wanna learn to Ski - PM me..


Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:44pm
Hannah

Scooby beat me to it but I agree. The mark rounding is
complete when you are both sailing your proper course. If
the inside windward boat's proper course isn't as high as
the outside one then she will have to tack away.

-------------
English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 8:24pm
Then take into account that the windward/inside boat was in the process of hardening up, and she was given no time to anything other than watch the little idiots behind getting closer and nudging her transom... outside boat tacked off after this which is I presume why they hit the inside boat. Surely a simple call of windward would have displayed their intention to tack? In which case the inside boat of course would have got out of the way and covered them up the beat...

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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail


Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 8:38pm
Hannah, perhaps I misinterpreted your initial post. I had
assumed that the lead boat was outside/LW and the overlap
was from the inside/WW. From what your post above says I
know take it that the inside boat was leading into the mark
and that the outside boat hardened up too quickly during
the rounding. Is that right?


-------------
English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 10:33pm
Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. The inside boat was leading, the outside boat rounded up faster than her and sailed up the back of her transom... before tacking off. Given that this was about 1 or 2 boat lengths from the mark (having gone round) should the inside boat still be in the right and allowed to get clear first? (And then as windward boat tack off or get out of the way)

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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail


Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 11:45pm
Well, in that case, the outside boat is still required to
give the inside boat mark room. This continues until they
are on their respective proper courses to the next mark.

So, if the outside boat rounds up into the inside boat,
she has not given enough mark room. If the overlap is
broken as the roundings of both boats begin, then
(assuming there was an entitlement to mark room in the
first case) the outside boat must continue to give mark
room. This includes not rear-ending the "inside boat".
Rule 18 covers it all and Rule 18.5 exonerates the inside
boat if she strikes the mark while attempting to avoid
contact while being squeezed.

-------------
English Dave
http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club

(You'd think I'd be better at it by now)

Hurricane 5.9 SX
RS700


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 12:24am

Originally posted by HannahJ

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Originally posted by HannahJ

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. The inside boat was leading, the outside boat rounded up faster than her and sailed up the back of her transom... before tacking off. Given that this was about 1 or 2 boat lengths from the mark (having gone round) should the inside boat still be in the right and allowed to get clear first? (And then as windward boat tack off or get out of the way)

Once the boat entitled to mark-room is at the mark, 'seamanlike' is no longer relevant:  the boat is entitled to 'mark-room to sail her proper course at the mark'.

Mark-room to sail a proper course at a leeward mark includes room to harden on at the optimum rate of turn and rate of in-sheeting, that is, you're not obliged to slam the  boat up to close hauled or above, but if you muff your harden-on, drop the sheet or whatever, then you're taking more room than you're entitled to and your exoneration under rule 18.5 switches off.

BUT, once you are 'one or two lengths from the mark (having gone round)', you are no longer 'at the mark', and you have had all the room you were entitled to.  An outside leeward boat has every right to push you up at least to their proper course, and if they do not have a rule 17 proper course obligation (which may have been established before the mark), they can push you up as high as they like.  They are bound by rule 16 to give you room to keep clear.  If they are clear astern, then they are bound to keep clear under rule 12.

To get an understanding of how mark-room applies, look at the 'round-about' analogy in Dick Rose's paper here

http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Technical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Section%20C%20Rules.pdf?MenuID=Racing%5FRules%2F21002%2F0%2F - http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Techn ical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Sect ion%20C%20Rules.pdf?MenuID=Racing%5FRules%2F21002%2F0%2F

 



Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 12:44am

Originally posted by English Dave

Well, in that case, the outside boat is still required to give the inside boat mark room. This continues until they are on their respective proper courses to the next mark..

I don't think this is the right way to say it.

The language of the new rules and cases no longer refers to a rounding being 'complete'.

A boat entering the zone with mark-room remains entitled to it while ever she is in the zone (unless she switches it off by passing head to wind).

But if she is not 'sailing to the mark' or 'at the mark', for example, is past the mark, her mark-room entitlement has no 'content', we might say mark-room = zero.  Her entitlement does not switch off, and may again become meaningful if, for example, in light/tidal conditions she drifts back to the mark.

Whether one or both boats are sailing their proper or best courses after they have passed the mark has no bearing on mark-room.

Originally posted by English Dave

So, if the outside boat rounds up into the inside boat, she has not given enough mark room..

As long as the inside boat is at the mark.  If past the mark rules 11 and 16 will apply.

Originally posted by English Dave

 If the overlap is broken as the roundings of both boats begin, then (assuming there was an entitlement to mark room in the first case) the outside boat must continue to give mark room. This includes not rear-ending the "inside boat"..

Not rear-ending the inside boat is a simple rule 12.

Originally posted by English Dave

Rule 18.5 exonerates the inside boat if she strikes the mark while attempting to avoid contact while being squeezed.

Rule 18.5 only gives exoneration from Section A right of way rules and, at the mark from rules 15 and 16, giving room rules.  Rule 18.5 does NOT exonerate a boat entitled to mark-room from breaking rule 31 Touching a Mark.  Any exoneration from rule 31 has to be given under rule 64.1(c).



Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 3:04pm

Hang on 1 moment guys she says the other boat sailed in to her transom.....surely that means she must have been clear ahead at some point and as she was inside boat how could she be in the wrong....

Were I on the PC I would find it hard to DSQ the boat that was clear ahead when the other boat came from behind and hit the transom.

Don't have a rule book to hand (or the time to look it up on the ISAF site) but as long as Hannah was sailing within the rules (and from her description she was IMO) then the other boat must be at fault.



-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74


Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 11:13pm
I think I was actually clear ahead before the mark (how did you guess I was the inside boat!) and called for water as you do. Not sure that makes much difference though.  So it seems that as I was within about 1.5 boat lengths of the mark they should still be giving me room to complete my turn onto the new course? Not to speak of a gentlemanly call of "windward" to let me know of their intention to tack... I could only watch them getting closer and closer and didn't have thinking time to do anything about it.


-------------
MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 12:58am

Originally posted by HannahJ

I think I was actually clear ahead before the mark

That counts for little. What matters is whether you were clear ahead or inside overlapped when the first boat reached the zone (rule 18.2(b)).  If so subsequent breaking and making of overlaps don't count, unless you tack (rule 18.2(c)).

Originally posted by HannahJ

(how did you guess I was the inside boat!)

Context is everything Grasshopper.  Would you describe yourself as 'little idiots'?

Originally posted by HannahJ

 and called for water as you do.

Why?  The real utility of a hail at a mark is to establish in both boat's minds whether or not there is an overlap at the zone, on the assumption that you both know what to do once that is established.  You need to make the hail (Overlap, No Overlap) just before the zone.  Hailing once inside the zone doesn't do anything much except increase the noise-level.

Originally posted by HannahJ

 Not sure that makes much difference though.

Indeed it makes no difference whether you are clear ahead or inside overlapped, or whether you hail or not:  you are still entitled to mark-room.

Originally posted by HannahJ

So it seems that as I was within about 1.5 boat lengths of the mark they should still be giving me room to complete my turn onto the new course?

No, once you are past the mark by as much as 1 or more lengths, you no longer need room to sail your proper course at mark, and you lose your exoneration:  if you don't keep clear of a leeward boat you break rule 11.  If a boat clear astern hits you, they break rule 12.

Originally posted by HannahJ

Not to speak of a gentlemanly call of "windward" to let me know of their intention to tack.

Why would you expect another boat to disclose their tactical intentions to you?

'Opportunity' was deleted from the rules long ago to remove the implication that a leeward boat had to hail.  Leeward's obligation is, if changing course, to give you room to keep clear (rule 16)  nothing more.  On the other hand Astern's obligation whether changing course or not is to keep clear of you (rule 12).

Originally posted by HannahJ

I could only watch them getting closer and closer and didn't have thinking time to do anything about it.

If it's clear ahead/clear astern rape, then you probably can't do anything about it, but if the other boat is coming up with a leeward overlap, the protest committee is going to want to hear from you that you did something  to meet your rule 14 obligation to avoid contact:  either you changed course to windward to maintain separation, or when contact seemed likely, you bore away hard to minimise impact. Rule 14 says you can't just sit there and watch it happen.



Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 12:18pm
They were clear astern before they hit me - if I'd have born away they'd have hit the middle of my transom instead of the corner. Admittedly I should probably have done something sooner but under the circumstances it wasn't possible - tacking off would probably have had the same effect as bearing away.  It was literally just after the mark. In future I'll ignore what's behind and with my new sails I should be able to point higher anyway!

Thanks for the explanations although it seems to be a bit of a debatable point.


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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 19 Jun 09 at 5:14pm

Originally posted by HannahJ

They were clear astern before they hit me - if I'd have born away they'd have hit the middle of my transom instead of the corner. Admittedly I should probably have done something sooner but under the circumstances it wasn't possible - tacking off would probably have had the same effect as bearing away.  It was literally just after the mark. In future I'll ignore what's behind and with my new sails I should be able to point higher anyway!

Thanks for the explanations although it seems to be a bit of a debatable point.

Seems a clear rule 12 infringement by the other boat to me!



-------------
Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 20 Jun 09 at 6:03pm
Yes, having found the rules on the ISAF site it does look like a rule 12 infringement - however they were clear astern and a little to leeward as a result of going round the mark outside me. Does that make a difference?

Also I'm unsure as to what "at" the mark refers to, or as the rules put it "in the zone". I presume this means the 3 boat length rule, and that it extends for 360 degrees around the mark. Have I understood correctly?

Edit: Could someone please explain rule 18.2 (e) to me: how would an outside boat be "unable to give mark-room" - does this refer to obstructions on the other side of the mark, eg. land? And how would a boat establish an overlap from anything other than clear astern?

Edit2: "proper course": when going upwind, surely there is more than one of these?


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MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin"
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 20 Jun 09 at 6:35pm
If there was a queue of other boats to the outside of the boat, the delay in response of all the other boats might leave them unable to giver room.
You can establish an overlap by gybing into it, or if the separation was enough also by heading up from more than 2 boat lengths to leeward.


-------------
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Garry
Date Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 7:50am
normally a big raft of boats prevents prompt response, but also a physical obstruction, capsized boat or another right of way boat (say a yacht not racing on starboard at the leeward mark) would also apply.

-------------
Garry

Lark 2252, Contender 298

www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by HannahJ

Yes, having found the rules on the ISAF site it does look like a rule 12 infringement - however they were clear astern and a little to leeward as a result of going round the mark outside me. Does that make a difference?
No, any boat behind the line across your transom at right angles to the centreline of your boat is Clear Astern, if on the same tack or on a downwind course.
Originally posted by HannahJ

Also I'm unsure as to what "at" the mark refers to, or as the rules put it "in the zone".
'At the mark' and 'in the zone (yes, 3 length zone, 'zone' in italics, so see Definitions) are very different. After a boat 'reaches' the zone, she then sails 'to the mark', then sails [around the mark] 'at the mark'. If you want to get on top of the rules, you need to read a bit. Bryan Willis' book is excellent. For discussion of 'to' and 'at' the mark, I suggest you read the  http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Technical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Section%20C%20Rules.pdf?MenuID=Racing%5FRules%2F21002%2F0%2F - ISAF Discussion Paper
Originally posted by HannahJ

I presume this means the 3 boat length rule, and that it extends for 360 degrees around the mark. Have I understood correctly?Edit: Could someone please explain rule 18.2 (e) to me: how would an outside boat be "unable to give mark-room" - does this refer to obstructions on the other side of the mark, eg. land? And how would a boat establish an overlap from anything other than clear astern?Edit2: "proper course": when going upwind, surely there is more than one of these?
On a leg with neither side favoured, there will indeed be a port tack proper course and a starboard tack proper course. This http://rrsstudy.blogspot.com/2009/02/proper-course.html - LTW Article on Proper Course should help.


Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 6:28pm
Is the overlap not from the the back of the rudder? 'aftermost point of the other boat's hull and equipment in normal position'

-------------
Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"


Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 21 Jun 09 at 10:27pm
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Is the overlap not from the the back
of the rudder? 'aftermost point of the other boat's hull
and equipment in normal position'


Yup. I stand corrected.



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