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gordon View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 May 09 at 11:00am
Mtoogood

In the situation you set out inside boat is overlapped to windward. If you read the definition of mark room then when a boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside then mark room includes room to tack. Outside boat must give sufficient room for inside boat to tack.
 

This raises a more general point. The Definitions are probably the most important part, and the most neglected, part of the rules. Whenever a word in a rule is in italics this refers to a definition. The definition forms part of the rule. It is worth spending a bit of time reading and making sense of what the definitions say.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 09 at 2:29am
Originally posted by mtoogood

  i am really struggling with the replies to issue 1, it came up this weekend when i was keelboat sailing on a boat with a very long counter, ie swings very wide when tacking. it exaggerated a problem to which (even after studying the rules) i cant see an answer. the problem is, 2 boats approaching the starboard rounding windward mark. inside boat has the overlap at 3 boat lengths and calls for water. outside boat correctly gives inside boat water to tack, ie let inside boat go head to wind,

Fine so far

Originally posted by mtoogood

   but will not give windward/inside boat room to set sails on port tack and round mark. if you look at rule 18.2 b the moment tack is complete (ie head to wind) the obligation to give room is removed.

I can't picture this.  If IW has come up to pass head to wind, from a position to windward of OL, then OL will be somewhere astern of IW.  How can OL affect IW's ability to 'set sails on port tack'?

But it doesn't matter.

A tack is not 'complete' until the boat has borne away onto a close hauled course.  When a boat passes head to wind she commences her tack (or so we would have said under the pre-1995 rules:  the RRS no longer use the defined term 'tacking', and probably in the simple english usage a boat is 'tacking' all the way from close hauled on the old tack to close hauled on the new tack).

Rule 18.2(c) switches off a boat's rule 18.2(b) entitlements to mark-room when either boat passes head to wind, leaving rule 18.2(a) entitlement to whoever is the inside boat intact.

But at a windward mark, with two boats initially on same tack, rule 18.1(b) switches off rule 18 in its entirity when one boat passes head to wind so that 'boats [are] on opposite tacks [and] the hproper course for one, but not both is to tack.'

So all mark-room entitlements disappear when IW passes head to wind.

Originally posted by mtoogood

   so for a keeboat with big counter they physically cant get the boat onto the new tack without the outside boat bearing off, which they have no obligation to do now that the inside boat has tacked. any ideas?

I still don't get the geometry:  if OL has kept clear during IW's big stern-swing to come up to head to wind, surely it is going to be very difficult for OL to still be hooked up overlapped outside IW's stern so as to be in the way as IW bears away?

But again it doesn't matter:  You are quite correct:  OL is now starboard tack, owing no mark-room to IW now on port:  if IW bears away and contacts OL or causes OL to change course to avoid contact with IW, then IW breaks rule 10 and probably rule 13.

Tactically, I suppose IW could play it like this:

Wait till she was at the mark before changing course.

Change course towards the wind as fast as she likes (protected by her rule 18.5 exoneration from rule 16) so that there is risk of contact with OL, then curtail her course-change, so as to avoid contact with OL and protest OL for not giving her mark-room, all before IW passes head to wind.

Absent other boats outside, OL should then bear away to get well clear and take her penalty turns, making room for IW to tack.

If IW passes head to wind and makes contact, she is in dire peril:  she just might claim that OL failing to give her mark-room compelled her, several seconds later once she had passed head to wind, to fail to keep clear of OL, and to contact OL, but this would be massively relying on charity from the protest committee.

Bottom line is that OL may well be able to get the close hook-up and exert control from the leeward position, unless IW is very neat and tidy with her seamanship.



Edited by Brass
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 09 at 8:36am
K.I.S.S.

A boat is tacking (in so far as rule 13 "while tacking" applies) from the time she passes head to wind until she is on a close hauled course. During this time an inside overlapped boat who is entitled to mark-room is, by the definition of mark-room, still entitled to room. This entitlement does not disappear when 18.2b switches off. If there is contact during the time that inside windward boat is subject to rule 13 then outside boat has failed to give mark room and inside boat is exonerated under 18.5a (but not from breaking rule 14 if this was an issue).

Inside windward boat, however, does not have mark room to bear away below close-hauled, nor to sail her proper course at the mark whilst outside leeward boat remains on starboard. But as boats are now sailing away from each other this should not be an issue. As soon as outside leeward boat passes head to wind she must keep clear (rule 13) and, as she is now on the same tack as inside boat, must give mark room under 18.2a.

Gordon
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mtoogood View Drop Down
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Posts: 2 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mtoogood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 09 at 7:05pm
thanks gordon - admirably simple and i am sure correct!
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 4:09am

Originally posted by gordon

K.I.S.S.

A boat is tacking (in so far as rule 13 "while tacking" applies) from the time she passes head to wind until she is on a close hauled course. During this time an inside overlapped boat who is entitled to mark-room is, by the definition of mark-room, still entitled to room. This entitlement does not disappear when 18.2b switches off.

I have to disagree with you Gordon.

There is no longer any express entitlement to room to tack as part of rounding a mark.  The new definition of mark-room just tells us when mark-room does not include room to tack.

At a windward mark, with two boats initially on same tack, rule 18.1(b) switches off rule 18 in its entirity when one boat passes head to wind so that 'boats [are] on opposite tacks [and] the proper course for one, but not both is to tack.'  So all mark-room entitlements disappear when one of the two boats passes head to wind.

See Case 50, last paragraph:

"If A were to pass head to wind, then at that moment all parts of rule 18 would cease to apply because the boats would be on opposite tacks (see rule 18.1(b))."

Originally posted by gordon

 If there is contact during the time that inside windward boat is subject to rule 13 then outside boat has failed to give mark room and inside boat is exonerated under 18.5a

Disagree:  once inside passes head to wind the whole of rule 18 is off

Originally posted by gordon

 (but not from breaking rule 14 if this was an issue).

Agree rule 18.5 never switches rule 14 off.

Originally posted by gordon

... snip... As soon as outside leeward boat passes head to wind she must keep clear (rule 13) and, as she is now on the same tack as inside boat, must give mark room under 18.2a.

Agree, rule 18 is back ON from when she passes head to wind.

 



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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Posts: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 9:05am

Consider the situation as if the mark were not there:-

If IW heads up to close hauled, then OW heads up to close hauled as well, then IF IW cannot tack because the stern swing would hit OW, then OW has not given IW sufficient time or space to keep clear (Rule 16).

Otherwise, IW could be put in the impossible position of a) not being able to tack because of OW and b) [possibly] sailing a lower close hauled course.

It isn't possible to establish an overlap from leeward without allowing the give-way boat to keep clear (Rule 17).

Colin
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tack'ho View Drop Down
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Posts: 1100 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 12:15pm
Originally posted by Brass

[I have to disagree with you Gordon.

mmmmmm....really?
I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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ChrisJ View Drop Down
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 09 at 5:57pm
Brass,

To avoid confusing sailors by our arguments I suggest we do what most judges do when they have different interpretations - we adjourn to a quiet corner of the bar, discuss the matter and come back with a considered answer. I will contact you directly, and promise to return to this thread with a considered answer

One point, you seem to be quoting a Case, but it is not Case 50 in my Case book - could you check the reference.

Gordon
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 09 at 12:54am

Originally posted by gordon

Brass,One point, you seem to be quoting a Case, but it is not Case 50 in my Case book - could you check the reference.

Gordon

I do apologise:  it's Case 15, not Case 50.
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