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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hardware development
    Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 11:42am
Originally posted by PeterG

Quite right H2. I learnt to sail in an old sweater, plimsoles on my feet and bit of string round my glasses. Cotton sails that needed regular washing, hemp ropes - ditto, and a clinker boat that always leaked.

I'd say we've come a little way since then!
That was state of the ark art in 1955, and what we were doing on a budget in 1975. By the end of the 70s, you could buy ball bearing blocks and cleats. By 1990, Merlins had fully raking rigs. It all works better these days because of dyneema etc, in the mid 80s you could get un-spliceable kevlar at at high cost.Of course many boats were fitted out very cheaply even when better fittings became available. How old is the classic Harken Cam-matic cleat design? The first ones I owned were on a clapped out boat in the late 80s.  One thing which I find mildy amusing is that my Dad's Ent had turnbuckles on the shrouds in the 70s now they're either banned or an expensive upgrade on some classes?
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 11:50am
Here we go, I learned to sail in a shoebox int gutter.. Now I've got a single handed version of a 1950's style boat with a few bits of modern string to pull H2 ffs.

Edited by iGRF - 10 Feb 22 at 11:50am
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 12:04pm
Like a lot of technology the improvements depend on using them correctly. 

Soft attach is only so useful when the hull isn't fitted out with sharp deck eyes. The picture in the advert possible doesn't show them in their best utilisation.  

But, pretty much anything within a system (like cascade) will all be soft attach on my boats. And if I can get a kind attachment point then soft attachment in my experience allows the block to align better with loads. It also gives you a bit more freedom to position the block the correct distance from a fitting where that is important (no need to stack shackles up).

Low friction rings I love. But again, have to choose when to use them. I have replaced all the little blocks in the control line take up with them. They have slightly more friction (under low loads) than bb block, but who cares in a take up, it's not me pulling it, it's elastic. Plus on the sea the maintenance of those tiny blocks was a hassle. Friction rings are less maintenance, cheap and lighter. 

Within a control system low friction blocks only really become helpful once you exceed the working limit of ball bearing blocks. Below that I think most people would still prefer a smooth ball bearing sheave.  So I don't actually use many LF rings on the 800 within systems because the loads aren't that high.  I also have allen's extreme high load block which is a hybrid ball bearing (for loader loads) and plain bearing ( which kicks in at higher loads) which protects the bearing from damage. 

I have replaced pretty much all bowline knots with soft shackles. It used to do my head in getting the spinnaker tack and halyard the exact distance from the mast / pole. But now I make a soft shackle the correct length and it's always spot on (and stronger, but strength of line isn't usually an issue on dinghies). 

The other place I like soft shackles is on the 2:1 halyard. It reduces friction slightly over a regular shackle, but also holds captive around the halyard so you can't lose the shackle, and as it has no pin, you can't lose that either... I think everyone has been there once or twice before, scrabbling around hands and knees looking for a shackle or pin that was just flicked out of your hand by a flog of a sail. 


Edited by Mozzy - 10 Feb 22 at 12:08pm
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:12pm
Do you think ski jumpers complain that their kit, despite changing from wood to composite, shape being tweaked, fittings being much more hi tech, complain that "they look like they did in the 50s". Where are the rocket boots, why can't we use squirrel suits, etc etc.

Or is it just certain ex windsurfing dinghy sailors?
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Oatsandbeans View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oatsandbeans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:16pm
Rupert, skis have changed shape a lot in the last 40 years, which luckily for learners has made them much easier to use. They work in a completely different manner and just rely on a bit of speed and getting the edges engage to make smooth fast turns.
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:45pm
Rigs have changed a  lot in the time I've been sailing.
Sails have improved with better cloth (if you can even call it that?).
Spars have adopted carbon. Even alloy masts work better because sections have improved and the hulls can handle the rig tension. FRP hulls improved a lot late last century. Another thing that's changed is (apart from teaching establishments) there are very few 'non racing dinghies', so virtually every new boat is built to race, even Mirrors, so the average standard of fit-out etc has gone up. The opposite has happened to some extent in yachts?
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 3:23pm
Slowly some dinghy stuff has changed and to be honest the fact it's a quiet backwater of the world as far as the technological pace of change is concerned is in one sense part of its charm, but don't go thinking as far as the real world of modern equipment based sports are concerned dinghys have come on much out of jurassic world.

Why? because the stupid class system holds it back, the pathetic protectionism from the PYAG stifles anything new and face it none of you want anything new and revolutionary in any way shape or form. The only class that has contributed any significant developments has been moths and frankly their rigs are or were still in the dark ages last I looked and restricted by either size or mast height I couldn't be bothered to find out which.

Had that Box class we all talked of gotten going who knows what might have sprung up, I was fascinated by that adjustable rocker someone posted on the Laser thread from the national 12s class, so it's not as if the inventiveness isn't out there, it's just all in the wrong places. Merlin Rockets FFS National 12s they pretty much have to do something because the Sows Ear is so bad to start with.

You can't expect an outfit like RS to develop anything radical they need an ROI, frankly I was surprised they even got the Aero off the ground, yet went and f**ked it up by making it too short and with a crap rig to support container shipping. The D0 spolit for a happorth of tar, a stupid baler and not enough consideration given to coastal sailing requirements. The H2? Its a single hander Merlin and that new Laser straight out of the 1999 playbook and as for hardware developments where, what? Most developments made for price and margin, I once offered to fund the development of a sliding mast track, they laughed. It is what it is, a world of old people set in their ways, very very slowly slding sideways into oblivion.

Edited by iGRF - 10 Feb 22 at 3:29pm
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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans

Rupert, skis have changed shape a lot in the last 40 years, which luckily for learners has made them much easier to use. They work in a completely different manner and just rely on a bit of speed and getting the edges engage to make smooth fast turns.


Well yes and no some of them are still using those stupid poles, but they are riding twin tips slopestyle in an effort to emulate the coolness of snowboarding.

They do have wider shorter skis with snowboard style sidecut and are a deal easier to ride, then they had to, Snowboarding came along and blew their doors off for style, they had to do something to help keep women and children relevant on the snow, do men still ski and openly admit to being softlads?

Edited by iGRF - 10 Feb 22 at 3:34pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Slowly some dinghy stuff has changed and to be honest the fact it's a quiet backwater of the world as far as the technological pace of change is concerned is in one sense part of its charm, but don't go thinking as far as the real world of modern equipment based sports are concerned dinghys have come on much out of jurassic world.

Why? because the stupid class system holds it back, the pathetic protectionism from the PYAG stifles anything new and face it none of you want anything new and revolutionary in any way shape or form. The only class that has contributed any significant developments has been moths and frankly their rigs are or were still in the dark ages last I looked and restricted by either size or mast height I couldn't be bothered to find out which.

Had that Box class we all talked of gotten going who knows what might have sprung up, I was fascinated by that adjustable rocker someone posted on the Laser thread from the national 12s class, so it's not as if the inventiveness isn't out there, it's just all in the wrong places. Merlin Rockets FFS National 12s they pretty much have to do something because the Sows Ear is so bad to start with.

You can't expect an outfit like RS to develop anything radical they need an ROI, frankly I was surprised they even got the Aero off the ground, yet went and f**ked it up by making it too short and with a crap rig to support container shipping. The D0 spolit for a happorth of tar, a stupid baler and not enough consideration given to coastal sailing requirements. The H2? Its a single hander Merlin and that new Laser straight out of the 1999 playbook and as for hardware developments where, what? Most developments made for price and margin, I once offered to fund the development of a sliding mast track, they laughed. It is what it is, a world of old people set in their ways, very very slowly slding sideways into oblivion.

Your problem is, you just don't 'get' One Design racing.Neither do you accept the compromise which is PY. Most people who have spent a lot of time racing, prefer class racing, where the best sailor wins most often, first across the line.There is absolutely nothing to stop people racing one another under some sort of 'box rule'. But very few people want to invest £20k in a one-off boat and find it's uncompetitive after a handful of races. Very few people want one-trick hulls which specialise in strong winds/light winds/waves/flat water/whatever. Maybe there are people who would like it, but not many can afford that kind of spend.

But the killer is, who would you be racing against? a few people with wacky ideas, a few people who don't like racing the class boats? Whereas in either of mt boats, I can race against a whole variety of people who've shown what they can do in all sorts of boats. A lot of the time racing a Laser, the boat is irrelevant, it's all about skill, tactics, wind and tide. Comparing my skills and guesses with some other people's.. That's actually a sport. Going out racing to see who's spent the most on making their boat lighter or exploited some strange corner of a box rule probably wears thin quite quickly. People have ried racing faster craft, e.g. cats and boards, if you've all got the same 'better' kit, it just ends up meaning you sail a bigger course in same time. Doesn't necessarily make the racing any more fun. I don't see kites or cats or boards racing very much at amateur club level these days? Likewise with other 'equipment based sports', look at cycling. People get out and race mano-a-mano under a bunch of restrictive rules, when did you last see any streamiliner recumbants racing?
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Posts: 497 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Grumpycat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Do you think ski jumpers complain that their kit, despite changing from wood to composite, shape being tweaked, fittings being much more hi tech, complain that "they look like they did in the 50s". Where are the rocket boots, why can't we use squirrel suits, etc etc.

Or is it just certain ex windsurfing dinghy sailors?

Totally agree  Smile
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