Hardware development
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13897
Printed Date: 27 Jun 25 at 10:31pm Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Hardware development
Posted By: tink
Subject: Hardware development
Date Posted: 09 Feb 22 at 5:14pm
Those nice people at Selden are offering to give your boat a free hardware fit out (all connect to the inaccessible show)
Part of the blurb mentions ‘soft attachment blocks’ and got me thinking of recent hardware developments and what people’s experience of them is: - soft attachment block (blocks tied on with a bit of string)
- low friction thimbles
- the resurgence of clam cleats with line guides etc (cam cleats are the only hardware I have ever known fail)
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/246106/Win-a-complete-dinghy-hull-deck-hardware-fit-out" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/246106/Win-a-complete-dinghy-hull-deck-hardware-fit-out
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Replies:
Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 22 at 6:31pm
Clam cleats on main halyards are probably the one thing I've replaced on every boat that's had one (or two). But I wouldn't choose to go back to those hook racks and wire halyards. Soft attach blocks are great sometimes, other times a more controlled fixing like a flip-flop block is better. I'm not a huge fan of stuff like LF rings or soft shackles just for the sake of it. Best upgrade in my experience is auto ratchet blocks, but they are not a new invention. Anyone want a tufnol one for a classic dinghy?
TBH, most of the gear which makes up a scary sum on a new boat has not changed all that much in about 40 years.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 22 at 6:42pm
Classic. Pose-tastic tie on block, but it's just tied to a plain old deck saddle rivetted on.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 09 Feb 22 at 8:12pm
Having said that, possibly the biggest change from 'state of the art when I were a lad' is dyneema. In 1980, splicing was something old blokes did on gaffers. Now we use it a lot to simplify the string. But easily spliced plait dyneema is not new. One of my favourite upgrades is a spiro/'rocket launcher' kite pole system, but that was available when Ford Sierras were new. Another big step I thought was boats like the RS400, where the deck moulding and some of the fittings/fit out were actually sorted out in a joined-up way. Still a t lot new-ish boats which look like someone bought a bare hull and then went shopping for blocks and cleats. And wedges and shims!
What have we actually done this century? forgotten about hydraulic rig adjustment? (that is perhaps not a bad thing?)
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 09 Feb 22 at 10:34pm
I agree with Dyneema, splices and lashing. 8kg of steel and aluminium came off my Hornet. I'll weigh the box after it is finished to see how much went back on. Hopefully a lot less. Someone said, holes are cheap, weigh less and don't often break, so I'm using them and lashings where I can.
------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 7:28am
Yes I remember we had a Tufnell one on our GP14 back in 1970.IIRC it was called a Novex block-great block.
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Posted By: The Q
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 9:14am
Found a commercial Tufnol block in my spares box a few days ago, It might get used on my refit of the boat.. I've built a few Tufnol blocks as well, when I was in Saudi, marine suppliers are thin on the ground, Tufnol was cheap as were the other materials, and I had access to a very good lathe..
The sheets and halyards fitted last Saturday are of course Dyneema... Still considering whether to go for Dyneema Shrouds..
------------- Still sailing in circles
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 9:42am
Originally posted by eric_c
]TBH, most of the gear which makes up a scary sum on a new boat has not changed at all in about 60 years. |
FTFY
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 10:15am
What a gloomy bunch of old blokes - when I think back to my experience of sailing in the 80's and 90's and compare that with when I returned in the 20teens its surprising how much better / easier boats are to sail and in part that is due to better "hardware" throughout the boats we now sail.
------------- H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082
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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 10:29am
Quite right H2. I learnt to sail in an old sweater, plimsoles on my feet and bit of string round my glasses. Cotton sails that needed regular washing, hemp ropes - ditto, and a clinker boat that always leaked.
I'd say we've come a little way since then!
------------- Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 11:42am
Originally posted by PeterG
Quite right H2. I learnt to sail in an old sweater, plimsoles on my feet and bit of string round my glasses. Cotton sails that needed regular washing, hemp ropes - ditto, and a clinker boat that always leaked.
I'd say we've come a little way since then! | That was state of the ark art in 1955, and what we were doing on a budget in 1975. By the end of the 70s, you could buy ball bearing blocks and cleats. By 1990, Merlins had fully raking rigs. It all works better these days because of dyneema etc, in the mid 80s you could get un-spliceable kevlar at at high cost.Of course many boats were fitted out very cheaply even when better fittings became available. How old is the classic Harken Cam-matic cleat design? The first ones I owned were on a clapped out boat in the late 80s. One thing which I find mildy amusing is that my Dad's Ent had turnbuckles on the shrouds in the 70s now they're either banned or an expensive upgrade on some classes?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 11:50am
Here we go, I learned to sail in a shoebox int gutter.. Now I've got a single handed version of a 1950's style boat with a few bits of modern string to pull H2 ffs.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 12:04pm
Like a lot of technology the improvements depend on using them correctly.
Soft attach is only so useful when the hull isn't fitted out with sharp deck eyes. The picture in the advert possible doesn't show them in their best utilisation.
But, pretty much anything within a system (like cascade) will all be soft attach on my boats. And if I can get a kind attachment point then soft attachment in my experience allows the block to align better with loads. It also gives you a bit more freedom to position the block the correct distance from a fitting where that is important (no need to stack shackles up).
Low friction rings I love. But again, have to choose when to use them. I have replaced all the little blocks in the control line take up with them. They have slightly more friction (under low loads) than bb block, but who cares in a take up, it's not me pulling it, it's elastic. Plus on the sea the maintenance of those tiny blocks was a hassle. Friction rings are less maintenance, cheap and lighter.
Within a control system low friction blocks only really become helpful once you exceed the working limit of ball bearing blocks. Below that I think most people would still prefer a smooth ball bearing sheave. So I don't actually use many LF rings on the 800 within systems because the loads aren't that high. I also have allen's extreme high load block which is a hybrid ball bearing (for loader loads) and plain bearing ( which kicks in at higher loads) which protects the bearing from damage.
I have replaced pretty much all bowline knots with soft shackles. It used to do my head in getting the spinnaker tack and halyard the exact distance from the mast / pole. But now I make a soft shackle the correct length and it's always spot on (and stronger, but strength of line isn't usually an issue on dinghies).
The other place I like soft shackles is on the 2:1 halyard. It reduces friction slightly over a regular shackle, but also holds captive around the halyard so you can't lose the shackle, and as it has no pin, you can't lose that either... I think everyone has been there once or twice before, scrabbling around hands and knees looking for a shackle or pin that was just flicked out of your hand by a flog of a sail.
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:12pm
Do you think ski jumpers complain that their kit, despite changing from wood to composite, shape being tweaked, fittings being much more hi tech, complain that "they look like they did in the 50s". Where are the rocket boots, why can't we use squirrel suits, etc etc.
Or is it just certain ex windsurfing dinghy sailors?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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Posted By: Oatsandbeans
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:16pm
Rupert, skis have changed shape a lot in the last 40 years, which luckily for learners has made them much easier to use. They work in a completely different manner and just rely on a bit of speed and getting the edges engage to make smooth fast turns.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 2:45pm
Rigs have changed a lot in the time I've been sailing. Sails have improved with better cloth (if you can even call it that?). Spars have adopted carbon. Even alloy masts work better because sections have improved and the hulls can handle the rig tension. FRP hulls improved a lot late last century. Another thing that's changed is (apart from teaching establishments) there are very few 'non racing dinghies', so virtually every new boat is built to race, even Mirrors, so the average standard of fit-out etc has gone up. The opposite has happened to some extent in yachts?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 3:23pm
Slowly some dinghy stuff has changed and to be honest the fact it's a quiet backwater of the world as far as the technological pace of change is concerned is in one sense part of its charm, but don't go thinking as far as the real world of modern equipment based sports are concerned dinghys have come on much out of jurassic world.
Why? because the stupid class system holds it back, the pathetic protectionism from the PYAG stifles anything new and face it none of you want anything new and revolutionary in any way shape or form. The only class that has contributed any significant developments has been moths and frankly their rigs are or were still in the dark ages last I looked and restricted by either size or mast height I couldn't be bothered to find out which.
Had that Box class we all talked of gotten going who knows what might have sprung up, I was fascinated by that adjustable rocker someone posted on the Laser thread from the national 12s class, so it's not as if the inventiveness isn't out there, it's just all in the wrong places. Merlin Rockets FFS National 12s they pretty much have to do something because the Sows Ear is so bad to start with.
You can't expect an outfit like RS to develop anything radical they need an ROI, frankly I was surprised they even got the Aero off the ground, yet went and f**ked it up by making it too short and with a crap rig to support container shipping. The D0 spolit for a happorth of tar, a stupid baler and not enough consideration given to coastal sailing requirements. The H2? Its a single hander Merlin and that new Laser straight out of the 1999 playbook and as for hardware developments where, what? Most developments made for price and margin, I once offered to fund the development of a sliding mast track, they laughed. It is what it is, a world of old people set in their ways, very very slowly slding sideways into oblivion.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 3:33pm
Originally posted by Oatsandbeans
Rupert, skis have changed shape a lot in the last 40 years, which luckily for learners has made them much easier to use. They work in a completely different manner and just rely on a bit of speed and getting the edges engage to make smooth fast turns. |
Well yes and no some of them are still using those stupid poles, but they are riding twin tips slopestyle in an effort to emulate the coolness of snowboarding.
They do have wider shorter skis with snowboard style sidecut and are a deal easier to ride, then they had to, Snowboarding came along and blew their doors off for style, they had to do something to help keep women and children relevant on the snow, do men still ski and openly admit to being softlads?
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 4:39pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Slowly some dinghy stuff has changed and to be honest the fact it's a quiet backwater of the world as far as the technological pace of change is concerned is in one sense part of its charm, but don't go thinking as far as the real world of modern equipment based sports are concerned dinghys have come on much out of jurassic world.
Why? because the stupid class system holds it back, the pathetic protectionism from the PYAG stifles anything new and face it none of you want anything new and revolutionary in any way shape or form. The only class that has contributed any significant developments has been moths and frankly their rigs are or were still in the dark ages last I looked and restricted by either size or mast height I couldn't be bothered to find out which.
Had that Box class we all talked of gotten going who knows what might have sprung up, I was fascinated by that adjustable rocker someone posted on the Laser thread from the national 12s class, so it's not as if the inventiveness isn't out there, it's just all in the wrong places. Merlin Rockets FFS National 12s they pretty much have to do something because the Sows Ear is so bad to start with.
You can't expect an outfit like RS to develop anything radical they need an ROI, frankly I was surprised they even got the Aero off the ground, yet went and f**ked it up by making it too short and with a crap rig to support container shipping. The D0 spolit for a happorth of tar, a stupid baler and not enough consideration given to coastal sailing requirements. The H2? Its a single hander Merlin and that new Laser straight out of the 1999 playbook and as for hardware developments where, what? Most developments made for price and margin, I once offered to fund the development of a sliding mast track, they laughed. It is what it is, a world of old people set in their ways, very very slowly slding sideways into oblivion. |
Your problem is, you just don't 'get' One Design racing.Neither do you accept the compromise which is PY. Most people who have spent a lot of time racing, prefer class racing, where the best sailor wins most often, first across the line.There is absolutely nothing to stop people racing one another under some sort of 'box rule'. But very few people want to invest £20k in a one-off boat and find it's uncompetitive after a handful of races. Very few people want one-trick hulls which specialise in strong winds/light winds/waves/flat water/whatever. Maybe there are people who would like it, but not many can afford that kind of spend.
But the killer is, who would you be racing against? a few people with wacky ideas, a few people who don't like racing the class boats? Whereas in either of mt boats, I can race against a whole variety of people who've shown what they can do in all sorts of boats. A lot of the time racing a Laser, the boat is irrelevant, it's all about skill, tactics, wind and tide. Comparing my skills and guesses with some other people's.. That's actually a sport. Going out racing to see who's spent the most on making their boat lighter or exploited some strange corner of a box rule probably wears thin quite quickly. People have ried racing faster craft, e.g. cats and boards, if you've all got the same 'better' kit, it just ends up meaning you sail a bigger course in same time. Doesn't necessarily make the racing any more fun. I don't see kites or cats or boards racing very much at amateur club level these days? Likewise with other 'equipment based sports', look at cycling. People get out and race mano-a-mano under a bunch of restrictive rules, when did you last see any streamiliner recumbants racing?
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Rupert
Do you think ski jumpers complain that their kit, despite changing from wood to composite, shape being tweaked, fittings being much more hi tech, complain that "they look like they did in the 50s". Where are the rocket boots, why can't we use squirrel suits, etc etc.
Or is it just certain ex windsurfing dinghy sailors? |
Totally agree 
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 5:16pm
Originally posted by eric_c
I don't see kites or cats or boards racing very much at amateur club level these days? Likewise with other 'equipment based sports', look at cycling. People get out and race mano-a-mano under a bunch of restrictive rules, when did you last see any streamiliner recumbants racing? |
Lot's of points I'd argue with on the basis of you would never know what you'd like until someone developed it, but to take your road bike point that is exactly the same as dinghys, for years road bikes were tied to arcane restrictions and riders just resorted to the best chemical enhancement rather than any progress, which, all went on in Mountain bikes which bought all manner of advancements. Including suspension, brakes, gears, and now electric stuff, the only road bikes that went down that path were cheats.
Imagine a Road bike with micro suspension to deal with potholes and disk brakes, which have only just started to appear, Road bikers are exactly like dinghyists.
As to racing boards at Club level, thank the PY authority for refusing to issue boards with a yardstick and staid clubs for refusing, Bewl refused boards on Sundays for years. Our club was saved by windsurfers who now populate the dinghy park, I am however pleased to see clubs accepting wing foiling but as to racing them very unlikely for a while.
None of which is relevant as a reason for t**sers not developing a handy adjustment mechansims to the stays and being basically lazy or luddite in extreme, to perpetuate chain plates and split rings particulalry those that once dropped, vanish into the space time continuum.
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 5:58pm
Originally posted by iGRF
[QUOTE=eric_c]
...... Imagine a Road bike with micro suspension to deal with potholes and disk brakes, which have only just started to appear, Road bikers are exactly like dinghyists.
...... |
When you get down to it, most successful 'equipment based racing' is probably a lot like dinghies, in that there's a lot of rules about the equipment, and 'classes' for different variations on those rules? Otherwise you end up with lots of 'classes' for weight ot age etc.
As for split rings, there are several alternatives, all of which cost and weigh a lot more than a handful of spare split rings.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 6:24pm
Originally posted by eric_c
As for split rings, there are several alternatives, all of which cost and weigh a lot more than a handful of spare split rings. |
There you go again, all about price rather than performance let me guess, you're a GP14 sailor.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 7:25pm
I don't want anything other than dinghies on the course when I am racing, race your non dinghy wind driven toys off the beach, personally I wouldn't take part in a race with 'Things' in it, just my opinion though. People who generally don't quibble about expense are sailing 505's, FD's, Yachts etc, usually sailing in clubs with similar and skill sets to match, they wouldn't want to sail against couple of hundred quid, couple of thousand quid boats and I don't blame them. Majority of clubs maximum value of boats will be less than 15 grand, most members will have other drains on their money.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 7:51pm
Originally posted by iGRF
Originally posted by eric_c
As for split rings, there are several alternatives, all of which cost and weigh a lot more than a handful of spare split rings. |
There you go again, all about price rather than performance let me guess, you're a GP14 sailor.  |
You can easily almost eliminate the split ring removal and help find some PY Zen, get a Laser iGRF
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Sailerf
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 9:08pm
It would be nice if we could support UK made hardware instead of Chinese made stuff that's been shipped around the world.
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 9:12pm
Fastpins?
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 10 Feb 22 at 11:18pm
I've had masts fall down mid race on five or six occasions and more often than not either a fastpin or a shackle failure was to blame.
I even tried bottle screws, they come undone, so you wire them up, the wire eventually rusts, breaks and the mast came really close to falling down.
Here's a stupid fact, I've had a mast come down more often in a dinghy mid race than on a windsurfing race board and there's nothing other than me holding it up.
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Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 7:48am
Originally posted by iGRF
I've had masts fall down mid race on five or six occasions and more often than not either a fastpin or a shackle failure was to blame.
I even tried bottle screws, they come undone, so you wire them up, the wire eventually rusts, breaks and the mast came really close to falling down.
Here's a stupid fact, I've had a mast come down more often in a dinghy mid race than on a windsurfing race board and there's nothing other than me holding it up. |
Then perhaps you are using the wrong parts then. I've sailed racing dinghies for over 40 years including some running very high rig loads and the only time I've had a mast come down is when the bottom section of my laser snapped at the deck.
------------- Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:11am
iGRF.
I have a degree of respect for your drive to innovate.
However on this point.
If you have had a mast fall down five or six times, statistically compared to other dinghy sailors that would point overwhelmingly to operator error on your part.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:14am
I think rope technology improved beyond recognition over the period 2000 - 2010.
Sailing kit was next with wetsuits becoming warmer for a given thickness and making a drysuit less of an essential for the winter if you don't like the cold.
Actual hardware like blocks, cleats etc hasn't really changed much as it? Yes we have soft attachment but its only the same sheave in a different housing. Low friction rings have only become mainstream in the last few years but these are only a rehash off a very standard round ferrule used in a different way. Both of these innovations are brilliant when used correctly but not really revolutionary.
In fact I see a lot of "innovation" that I think is a change for the sake of it. T Terminals on the bottom of shrouds (Someone is going to lose a rig due to this) and bolting shrouds/fittings into carbon masts are my two particular pet hates. What is actually wrong with a pin/ring or an upper T terminal?
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Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:14am
Think you’ve been very unlucky.iGRF. I’ve been sailing for 35 years and it’s never happened to me and I’ve only ever seen it happen to other people three times and one of those was a Laser top section.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:16am
Originally posted by Do Different
iGRF.
I have a degree of respect for your drive to innovate.
However on this point.
If you have had a mast fall down five or six times, statistically compared to other dinghy sailors that would point overwhelmingly to operator error on your part. |
Fast pins are great when used correctly. If you can pull one out on a GP when it's under tension you really should be on TV.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:29am
The drive to innovate classes is a funny one.
the I14 - once the main UK development class - has never been considered accessible even in old days and now is a very niche market.
The International Moth adopted foiling and completely wrecked a fantastic and unique UK development class where home building and low cost competitive racing was in full swing. This has never been replaced, but the Low Riders are making a small comeback.
The National 12 reduced its weight beyond what its current fleet could achieve and then followed it up with a game changing foil change obsoleting its whole fleet virtually overnight - its just sort of recovering back to where it was but again this was a huge thriving class in days gone by.
The only "development" class that really survives is the Merlin, as a result of accidentally embracing one design racing as Douglas loves to point out! But even here the cost is creeping back up partly as a result of the current world/europe situation but also partly driven by people seeking that 0.01% advantage and being prepared to spend hundreds on doing so. Again, the merlin has never been considered an affordable class, but new ones came closest in the early noughties, and these days a competitive inland boat will set you back about three grand.
Just the opinion of this observer, but innovation is a double edged sword. You need it for things to progress, but if you do it too quickly you destroy what the previous innovations created. And it takes far longer to build back up than it did to create the magic string.
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Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 8:56am
I have come to the conclusion that iGRF just needs to follow his hearts desire and set up a new "innovation class racing series" which he can win each and every weekend because he is the only entrant. A pleasant side-effect will be that he can leave the rest of us luddites to go racing each weekend whether we choose handicrap or class racing in our backward boring boats. Personally I have had a huge amount of fun and enjoyment out of this winters Sailjuice events, just catching up with so many friends and having a laugh doing a sport that makes me happy!
------------- H2 #115 (sold)
H2 145
OK 2082
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Posted By: mole
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 12:08pm
Coming back to the original question... Ball bearing blocks made a big impact when they became affordable. Here is a bizarre one, combination trolley/trailers! Not really hardware, but modern ropes and also clothing. The transition from wooden to FRP was painful. Timber, the original exotic material, was and is still competitive when combined with the right design and build method. FRP was initially largely very poor in most cases, no durability (in terms of stiffness) but now much improved with newer sandwich construction and understanding of the lay of directional fibres. I reckon that takes us to the 2000's. Since then it has been tinkering at the edges and the introduction of carbon in rigs/structures for the few that can justify the cost. If you look at other industries then that is were the development starts, particularly with materials, but the biggest changes there have been in process control and quality. I guess the next development is a production 3d printed complete boat!
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Posted By: Mark Aged 42
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 1:17pm
3D sails have been done.....
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 2:39pm
Seriously, hardware has improved dramatically in my sailing lifetime, a lot of credit must go to Harken who have reliable kit that can out live a boat, and typically are sold in packs to the builders. Buying blocks and cleats to improve systems was a regular Saturday activity in the 70's, but since then this is a rare occurrence.
Modern spliceable line is a gift to the boat bimbler who has nothing left to do on a Saturday, and offers the opportunity to junk large quantities of line, when you realise that the newly fitted continuous system is 20mm too short ... at least the dogs now get fancy leads.
Mylar and CAD technology has transformed sails. Dacron sails only held their shape for a few races, and sailmakers struggled to replicate a fast sail back in the day, now I can by a mylar sail that is fast for two or three seasons, and is exactly the same cut as the National Champions.
But my award for contribution to hardware goes to improved rudder stock technology, particularly Mr Winders carbon rudder stocks ... gone are the days of sketchy downwind legs where controlling ones direction was a somewhat random event.
In by opinion soft shackles, thimbles and dog bones are a solution looking for a problem, though I was recently excited to find such a problem requiring a solution on my Solo inhaul system ... though there is more friction than the block it replaces I now have a system that incorporates a thimble, dog bone and soft shackle ... at least it used up some of that expensive Dyneema lying in the garage
------------- Happily living in the past
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by Mark Aged 42
3D sails have been done..... |
And were slower and to this day I've never completely 100% understood why, I have theorys in that none 3D sails could 'breathe' better than their 3D fixed shape counterperts, but they were an expensive failure in Windsurfing (I was selling North in those days when they developed 3DL.and knew Larry Herbig the North Sails boffin that developed 3DL for windsurfing by grabbing time on their 'Area 51 Computerised mould. Having said that some of the 3D wave sails they built, I still rate to this day as superior to anything that has arrived since, but they were assembled from 3 D panels over special formers, so there wasn't the single continual strand sandwiched between the mylar or whatever carrier film they applied at the time.
It's still a very black art what makes sails fast over what you actually think is going to do it.
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Posted By: Riv
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 2:47pm
iGRF should move onto model yachting. Maybe the 36" box rule class. Loads of room for innovation there. 3D printed model yachts are a thing now.
------------- Mistral Div II prototype board, Original Windsurfer, Hornet built'74.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by Do Different
iGRF.I have a degree of respect for your drive to innovate. However on this point. If you have had a mast fall down five or six times, statistically compared to other dinghy sailors that would point overwhelmingly to operator error on your part. |
Well it's been over two or three different boats, the EPS came down on the lake when a fastpin twisted out of one side of the chain plate, have still got the bent out of shape chain plate to prove it.
The Farr 1st time was a shackle that came suppled brand new, nothing I did. 2nd time might have been a bit my fault not saying why, third time was another fast pin on the lee side (I was out on the wire we all went in the water together)
The Hybrid/Fireblade was a fast pin (why do I never learn)1st time, then a bottle screw but I managed to get ashore before it completely fell down.
I've had boats that nothing (like the mast falling down) went wrong, the Musto, L3K, RS500, Alto, RS100, and the Solution, Solo, Minisprint have all been OK.
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 2:56pm
Here this is the sort of thing I would have liked to see applied to those shrouds, ignore the fact the illustration is on shoes in this video, the Boa system has been used on lots of applications from Snowboard boots to wind and kite harnesses, as a use for micro adjustment on the fly it would work on shrouds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op4Bsk6wmRU" rel="nofollow - Boa System
------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website
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Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 3:41pm
iGRF @2.49. I take it back; you have obviously been a statistical outlier.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 5:01pm
@Graeme, if you’re having fast pin failures then they’re not seated properly, or the tiny spring behind the tiny ball bearing retainer isn’t working, allowing the pin to creep out. Anything with moving parts needs maintenance, especially if it’s exposed to salt water.
------------- Nick
D-Zero 316
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 6:08pm
I distrust fast pins where rig tension is low, boats with slack rigs and such like. I have a couple and decided to use them on my dyneema lowers for ease of adjustment, and I decided they were less critical than on the shrouds or forestay so it would be a safe place try them out. I had a protracted capsize on Sunday and during the process of recovering one of the fast pins came partially out releasing the lower and preventing me from sailing on. I'll be reverting to clevis pins and keyrings this weekend.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 6:49pm
I have the nice shroud adjusters which don't completely let go of the shroud when the fast pin is out.
But I also cover the adjusters with some neoprene sleeves, you can also use push bike inner tube. It's pretty difficult to get the fastpin out with the cover in place. Maybe some sort of rigid cover would lock the pin in place? The risk is perhaps highest when people help pull boats up the beach?
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 6:52pm
I have considered that but sticking bike inner tube over the shroud adjusters sort of defeats the 'easy to adjust' element. That said they are pretty much impossible to adjust on the water anyway...
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 7:10pm
I always used stainless steel bolts with nyloc nuts on the Enterprise, no need for rapid adjust on a 20 acre lake, didn't stop the Starboard shroud ripping half the deck and a big patch of the hull off, totally destroying the boat, not the fault of bolts though. the strip of hardwood under the gunnel had quietly rotted away, was quite spectacular.
------------- Robert
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 7:18pm
Is there not a solution that is based in a drop nose pin with some plastic part that fits between the shroud adjuster and the drop nose so the drop nose can’t flip up. (Obviously trailer drop nose pins have a locking steps in the drop nose but with the random widths of things being pinned on boats this less likely to work)
Advantages > no separate rings > sheer area is full 6mm not 6mm minus area of fast pin mechanics
PS - I use a 40 year old fast on my downhaul, never failed. I think it is critical to have a good gap between the side of the shroud plate and the locking pin to avoid any longitudinal stress on the locking pip
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 7:25pm
I think the point about fast pins is that they're only fast if used without any additional safety precautions...
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke"
Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish"
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Posted By: tink
Date Posted: 11 Feb 22 at 7:29pm
I was once sailing my IC and noticed the mast had developed a lot of rake. I looked to the bow and the whole of the foredeck was coming away from the hull and I was sailing with what looked like a giant biting mouth.
Got back to shore with the mast intact and all pins in place. Was on the start line next day thanks to 8 inches of 4mm stud iron, nuts, washers and some PU glue (works on wet wood and was only local available at the local undertakers)
------------- Tink
https://tinkboats.com
http://proasail.blogspot.com
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Mar 22 at 2:35pm
Hopefully this is the right thread for this question. I couldn't work out from the search results if such a thing has been asked and answered already, or not, so here goes.
I noticed a lot of t-foil rudders at the dinghy show and these are now on craft such as N12 where I understand they benefit all those wishing to actually survive a bear-away in F4+ by stopping the nose diving and enabling the crew to even contemplate gybing in waves as well.
Systems to control the rake / angle of attack (someone feel free to correct) seem very well sorted, there very neat examples on canoes, the rainbow N12 and so on. So, here's the questions:
i) do t-foil rudders benefit in other ways than just avoiding nose-dives? presumably lifting the back of the boat is advantageous upwind as well? If so, how? ii) is there a speed cut-off where they don't or won't work or be so ineffective as to not make it worth the extra hardware to implement?
------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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Posted By: eric_c
Date Posted: 01 Mar 22 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by getafix
Hopefully this is the right thread for this question. I couldn't work out from the search results if such a thing has been asked and answered already, or not, so here goes.
I noticed a lot of t-foil rudders at the dinghy show and these are now on craft such as N12 where I understand they benefit all those wishing to actually survive a bear-away in F4+ by stopping the nose diving and enabling the crew to even contemplate gybing in waves as well.
Systems to control the rake / angle of attack (someone feel free to correct) seem very well sorted, there very neat examples on canoes, the rainbow N12 and so on. So, here's the questions:
i) do t-foil rudders benefit in other ways than just avoiding nose-dives? presumably lifting the back of the boat is advantageous upwind as well? If so, how? ii) is there a speed cut-off where they don't or won't work or be so ineffective as to not make it worth the extra hardware to implement? |
Obviously they are banned in most classes. As regards the parameters for T foils improving performance, I think that may depend on whether you're slapping aT foil on an existing hull, or designing a hull to work with a T foil. I think some boats switch back to a normal rudder for light airs?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 22 at 5:53pm
Originally posted by getafix
do t-foil rudders benefit in other ways than just avoiding nose-dives? |
The more you lift the boat and reduce displacement the less water you are pushing out of the way, which is of course less form drag. Two sided high aspect ratio shaped foils lift the boat a great deal more efficiently than the one sided very low aspect ratio bottom of the hull.
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Posted By: Gfinch
Date Posted: 03 Mar 22 at 8:11pm
We haven’t found a speed ceiling yet with the T Foil.
On the N12:
1) Stability at speed
2) Transom lift
3) Pushes stern wave back, tricking the water into thinking the boat is actually longer than 12ft
4) Can adjust angle to lift the bow up in waves
In the N12, T Foils work on some of the older designs, but not so well in lighter airs, where a standard blade works better. On the Dead Cat Bounce, works well above 5kts of wind.
------------- 3513, 3551 - National 12
136069 - Laser
32541 - Mirror
4501 - Laser 4000
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