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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Blaze
    Posted: 25 May 21 at 10:24am
Having seen the new sail at the Northerns I'm looking forward to getting mine in time for the Nationals. Perhaps somebody could post some base settings (particularly prebend and spreader length/rake as that was discussed at Dee SC) as, with only 2 ˝ weeks to go, I'm unlikely to get any tuning done before the event?
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 21 at 10:17am
In the past (2001) when the sail was changed from the Topper original we REDUCED the sail size by about 7-10% - a bit of trivia form the past of course but the boats appeal took-off as it could be sailed by more regular sized club helms and was possibly faster except in the very lightest breezes.

The Hartley sail is really very very close to the North.  Having examined it against an almost new North on the weekend the only obvious difference is that the very top is 'managed' by a single primary batten now - past of the cost reduction requirement.  The 'old' sail used a couple of sewn in battens as well as the traditonal set-up and the profile was slightly curved rather than 'square-headed' (incidentally Both the Halo (larger) and Fire (smaller) Blaze sails, developed later, already feature a square head profile.  Overlaying the North and Hartley sails showed a slight redistribution in area due to the battening change and luff curve and if anything it is slightly shorter in the foot.  

The class is by very far not the first SMOD to go through sail supply changes... These things happen and are a fact of commercial life.  Many of the RS classes ditto and some others have multiple sail suppliers who build to a common pattern.  All that has really happened is that Hartley have taken the opportunity to bring the 'standard' sail in line with the other Blaze sails - and reduce their costs along the way. 

In the most recent Warsash meeting the results of the Hartley sail equipped boats were widely spread down the results.  The fact that they were carried to first and second places as well is not a surprise in the class as both helms are recent National champions - it helps !  There will no doubt be a few more equipped with the Hartley sails at the Nationals in a few weeks time ... should be good with nearly 70 boats already entered and paid up in advance !  For us another Nationals milestone ... 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 21 at 9:48am
The Grad sail certainly got larger!

Of course, the original Blaze sail was bigger than those that followed, so I'm not sure how that gets fitted into the yardstick conspiracy theory?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 21 at 8:09am
Originally posted by Sam.Spoons

I'm not sure they could have built an exact copy of the North as North developed the sail not the CA or Blaze right holders.

I'm quite sure any decent sailmaker who wanted to could make an exact copy if they have a new sail to copy the panel shapes from and I don't think subtle differences in shapes from one sail to another can be given design protection.

I know it's certainly happened in open classes for a sailmaker to get hold of a new sail from a competitor and make a copy of it in a few hours - only to find out their competitor's sail was actually a copy of their design in the first place! 
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H2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 21 at 8:07am
Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by H2


Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by H2

...also assume that at some point there would need to be two PYs

Of course not. One class, one yardstick.

I can think of a number of classes that have different PYs depending on the age of the boat and the rules that related to them at that point in their development - Flying 15s and Cherub spring to mind but there are probably a number of others if I put my mind to it.

Not official ones, just class suggestions. The ILCA has a new sail cut, so does the RS200, 400 and 800. As does the Topper, the 4000, the ISO, the Tasar, the Graduate and every traditional one design class ever made.

Those classes all kept the sail area the same as the original though I think - new Blaze sail is larger than the original.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 8:35pm
H2 - I mostly race 'an old Mk2 Blaze ' as you might call it at Burghfield SC - it is now 16 years old.  However it is almost as fast as my 3 month old 'new' boat.  The difference is that it has been maintained at a high level for nearly all of its life and with an eye to its performance. Many older boats in all classes are poorly maintained with tired sails, ineffective slot sealers and chipped, rough and ragged foils.  Frequently their control systems need updating and/or need fittings replaced and many leak and have absorbed water over the decades.  

But if you are really prepared to work hard to optimise and maintain an early older boat in my class and many others, spend a few quid periodically on any needed replacements and find out and apply optimal rig settings they can still be highly and truly competitive.  Even tired old ones can be transformed with the right amout of TLC.   My 16 year old 'early' boat is within a couple of kg of minimum class weight, my 'new' one exactly on minimum weight - neither leak, both use the same systems and I use exactly the same settings on both.  The 'new' one perhaps is a small fraction quicker on some courses but that is not an absolute certainty on any particular day.   Would I give preference to the 'new' one for a major competition - Yes of course ... it is possibly a smidgeon quicker and I've just pimped and polished it for the Nationals but they look almost identical on the water !   Would I use the 'old' one say for the Nationals if I had to ? - Absolutely it is a great boat as well and only needs that final polish, and it is fully capable of beating very many 'new' boats as well (and at a fraction of the cost ...).   

PS - I would not put too much money on the new sail not 'working' on tin masts if you are not prepared to lose - the standard carbon mast is unchanged and was originally and untypically developed to emulate the critical standard tin mast characteristics on the Blaze thus maintaining a common standard sail for the class.  This was to ensure that they and sails could be swapped in and out at will ! ...   I'd be surprised if this had not already been tried /confirmed recently with the revised Hartley sail..  Wink




Edited by Cirrus - 24 May 21 at 8:57pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote H2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 7:59pm
I might still try one Mike, but would just be my beach boat for blasting around when down in Devon rather than something I raced - I enjoy the H2 way too much for that. The old tatty Mk1 or 2s will probably get even cheaper now the new sail (might) not work with the old mast - who knows if it does or doesn't - point is the beach boat will get cheaper!
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Cirrus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 7:50pm
Only one way to find out for yourself rather than 'take as read' all the web babble either way - so try one !   You know you want to really so what is stopping you ?

The class has boomed  especially in recent months and is now heading towards its largest Nationals ever in 2021 with nearly 70 already paid up entrants fully committed with weeks to go before the event at Paignton.  It has been hard to find a decent used one for a couple of years now and 'good used' prices are still rising with many boats selling by word of mouth before they are even advertised....    

As for PN ... well really !  It has varied over the years from as low of 1021 to the mid 1040's but is currently 1033... but only if you point it in the right direction of course.  Do note the class does not set PN's for the Blaze anymore than the alternatives do...  (...Cue the usual suspects and the usual well worn 'arguments' on this forum - but come on there the class racing is what we are all told it is about surely )



     


Edited by Cirrus - 24 May 21 at 7:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 7:40pm
Originally posted by H2


Originally posted by Peaky

Originally posted by H2

...also assume that at some point there would need to be two PYs

Of course not. One class, one yardstick.

I can think of a number of classes that have different PYs depending on the age of the boat and the rules that related to them at that point in their development - Flying 15s and Cherub spring to mind but there are probably a number of others if I put my mind to it.

Not official ones, just class suggestions. The ILCA has a new sail cut, so does the RS200, 400 and 800. As does the Topper, the 4000, the ISO, the Tasar, the Graduate and every traditional one design class ever made.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 21 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Sussex Lad



How many changes has the Blaze had since the Topper days?


Enough to keep it viable - clearly.

Stunting progress in a Class just to keep old duffers happy is stupid.



Absolutely and I totally understand the commercial reasons for doing it gradually.......make a change, wait a couple of years for the py to catch up, make another change. The Blaze has been one step ahead of the numbers for 15yrs imo and has greater appeal consequently. Tighter tolerance on hull weight of 72 kgs also in the mix.............Would have used the same strategy myself. Hats off.

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