New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: PY changes for 2014
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

PY changes for 2014
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1718192021 27>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
tgruitt View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 02 Dec 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2479 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tgruitt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PY changes for 2014
    Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:18am
Originally posted by iGRF

[QUOTE=tgruitt]


It is a fact the 505 is faster than the Alto, the designer deliberately set out for it to be that way, depowered the rig, it was at one time going to be a hiker, when I bought it, I bought it knowing that. So it is wrong, wrong for the designer manufacturer, wrong for his customer, if a bunch of lake or river hotshots via a computer system, define it as something else and I'm sure there could be a legal course of action that could be taken, either by Devoti or Cirrus or the Alto builders against what could be argued as restrictive practises, I'm not sure but it most certainly needs looking at.


Are you being serious? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard
Needs to sail more...
Back to Top
Blue One View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 09 Nov 13
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blue One Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:20am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

I cant sit here reading this thread without commenting anymore. I would far rather sail under the current system than any of those proposed solutions I am hearing.  iGRFs proposal that people ignore the hard facts and make judgement calls on different boats is open to too much subjectivity, sailing similar boats scratch just seems pointless as the faster boats will always win and having different PYs for different locations will be far too hard to administer. I think the current system is as good as it can get and I am very happy with it (even though my main class was nobbled this year), I am glad to see things changing over the plast few years after the recent revamp of the process. I would like to express my gratitude for the efforts of the people on the PYAG and thank them for using their own time to improve my sailing!


+ 2
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:23am
Originally posted by GybeFunny

[---]  iGRFs proposal that people ignore the hard facts..


That is not what I'm proposing, I'm saying ignore skewed data and if so reach for hard facts.

Measure and bloody well trial them if you have to, but denying access to the market for a boat like the Icon is wrong, for whatever reason inaccurately suggesting another boat is faster for whatever reason is wrong, I'm even wondering if the sale of goods act could be used here, maybe if the RYA had to test the system in law, they'd take more time to be sure it worked better. The problem is you'd have to sue the supplier, it would be a question of wether they could join the RYA in that action.

Tough one, I'm glad I don't make boats and have to market them in the face of this nonsense.
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
Noah View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 29 Dec 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:23am
Just because the designer intended it to be slower, doesn't necessarily make it so. (I have suspicion, for example, that Icon has turned out faster than Mike ever hoped it would.) I would imagine that an Alto would slaughter a 5o on an RTC course where you can use the assym, but the monster kite stays in the chute except on the DDW leg. If you are shipping water over the lee side then you need to sail it flatter - don't blame the boat, or the PY. Hell - I can keep up with a 5o in my Furball if he can't use his kite on the reaches & I can! (For the first lap, at least Embarrassed ).
Nick
D-Zero 316

Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:26am
Originally posted by tgruitt


Originally posted by iGRF

[QUOTE=tgruitt]

It is a fact the 505 is faster than the Alto, the designer deliberately set out for it to be that way, depowered the rig, it was at one time going to be a hiker, when I bought it, I bought it knowing that. So it is wrong, wrong for the designer manufacturer, wrong for his customer, if a bunch of lake or river hotshots via a computer system, define it as something else and I'm sure there could be a legal course of action that could be taken, either by Devoti or Cirrus or the Alto builders against what could be argued as restrictive practises, I'm not sure but it most certainly needs looking at.
Are you being serious? That's the biggest load of crap I've ever heard


Mate you're living in a world where coppers sue the complainant if they trip up a kerb, you don't think having spent seven or eight grand for a product that has certain definitions, turns out suddenly not to have them, there isn't a case to answer?
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Blue One

Originally posted by GybeFunny

I cant sit here reading this thread without commenting anymore. I would far rather sail under the current system than any of those proposed solutions I am hearing.  iGRFs proposal that people ignore the hard facts and make judgement calls on different boats is open to too much subjectivity, sailing similar boats scratch just seems pointless as the faster boats will always win and having different PYs for different locations will be far too hard to administer. I think the current system is as good as it can get and I am very happy with it (even though my main class was nobbled this year), I am glad to see things changing over the plast few years after the recent revamp of the process. I would like to express my gratitude for the efforts of the people on the PYAG and thank them for using their own time to improve my sailing!


+ 2

+3, and I'm giving up feeding the troll.
Wilsonian SC
3000 Class
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:33am
Originally posted by Noah

Just because the designer intended it to be slower, doesn't necessarily make it so. (I have suspicion, for example, that Icon has turned out faster than Mike ever hoped it would.) I would imagine that an Alto would slaughter a 5o on an RTC course where you can use the assym, but the monster kite stays in the chute except on the DDW leg. If you are shipping water over the lee side then you need to sail it flatter - don't blame the boat, or the PY. Hell - I can keep up with a 5o in my Furball if he can't use his kite on the reaches & I can! (For the first lap, at least Embarrassed ).


You would imagine?

That's the difference, I have physical experience backing my words, then backing that opinion is the cold hard facts of sail area, jib size, kite size, 7 years observation, then in the case of the Icon detailed research prior to a project that unfortunately had to be cancelled due to illness, and racing experiences against the boat, so in these two instances more facts than most.
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
yellowwelly View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 24 May 13
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2003 		Post Options Post Options   Quote yellowwelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:34am
technically- the manufacturer hasn't set the PN, even if they have recommended something to the customer/public domain.

I don't think there's a legal precedent where through the ethical and empirically accurate course of its activities, a third party, in this case the RYA, can held accountable for the potential loss of revenues of a product manufacturer or trading company utilising that third party's IP to assist with its sales.  

I think the best you can achieve from a hypothetical legal wrangling is finally convince manufacturers to STFU when it comes to announcing a predicted PN.  I feel for Mike on this... damned if he does, damned if he doesn't, but legal chatter ain't going to help anyone.  


Edited by yellowwelly - 28 Feb 14 at 11:37am
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:35am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac


Originally posted by Blue One


Originally posted by GybeFunny

I cant sit here reading this thread without commenting anymore. I would far rather sail under the current system than any of those proposed solutions I am hearing.  iGRFs proposal that people ignore the hard facts and make judgement calls on different boats is open to too much subjectivity, sailing similar boats scratch just seems pointless as the faster boats will always win and having different PYs for different locations will be far too hard to administer. I think the current system is as good as it can get and I am very happy with it (even though my main class was nobbled this year), I am glad to see things changing over the plast few years after the recent revamp of the process. I would like to express my gratitude for the efforts of the people on the PYAG and thank them for using their own time to improve my sailing!



+ 2

+3, and I'm giving up feeding the troll.


If you're not interested who even cares/ Go post on some redneck website comparing trailer parks..
Snow Equipment Deals    New Core Kite website
Back to Top
Rupert View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 11 Aug 04
Location: Whitefriars sc
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Feb 14 at 11:39am
No, I think GRF is right. It has turned out from the figures the RYA have published this year that my Lightning is in fact approximately 1/2% slower than I thought it was. As I bought it thinking it was one speed, based on what the RYA said, and they have now changed their minds, based on nothing but statistics, I think I am going to sue them for their deception, as I'm obviously going to get less enjoyment from my boat, now I know it is slower.
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1718192021 27>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy