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fab100 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by transient

What's GRF then?   Wink

Worryingly quiet at the moment
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Andymac View Drop Down
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:49pm
Originally posted by transient

What's GRF then?













Wink
 
Fuller (hot) air bubbles, so floats higher. Wink
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 12:59pm
Originally posted by MrGin

FRP = Fibreglass Reinforced Plastic with polyester resin and foam core ie Speed, Porter, Ronder, HAPCO (current world championship hull)
ERP = Epoxy Reinforced Plastic with Fibreglass and foam core ie Ovington
GRP = Glass Reinforced plastic without core in olden days ie Fosrite Hulls
 
I'm easily confused!
As I thought, and as others have pointed out, you're dfinitely confused! All of what we refer to as "composite" in sailing (given we don't, outside of high-spec bearings, have any need for ceramics) is "fibre reinforced plastic". But people do get a bit confused, and let the "P" stand for polyester. That, or they go a little more sepcific and use "CF" for carbon fibre and "G" for Glass, though this mainly seems to be used for random matt/chopper gun construction.
 
In all composites, you have two materials (thus the name). In the ones we're worried about, you have a fibre and you have a matrix (there are non-fibrous composites. Concrete for example). Most boats use Glass fibre, be it chopped strand, random matt, UD, woven fabric, stiched fabric. High tech ones use mainly carbon, which is less likely to be chopped or random*. For real fun you can get into mixed fibre, which starts to bring in aramids.
 
Then you've go the matrix (the "P") which is commonly cheap polyester, slightly more expensive vinylester or (more expensive again) low-end epoxy resins. The latter tow can be applied to the fibre in all sorts of ways- "wet lay up", infusion, pre-preg and more.
 
Regardless, "ERP" is a nonsensical term.
 
* this is a chopped strand carbon product. The window frames on the B787 are made from it: http://www.hexcel.com/products/industries/ihexmc-materials
-_
Al
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by transient

What's GRF then?













Wink


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tick View Drop Down
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Posts: 223 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:43pm
I wondered that. I come back from my backpacking hols and he seems to have gone into hiding.
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Posts: 1094 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bootscooter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:43pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Originally posted by transient

What's GRF then? Wink

 

Fuller (hot) air bubbles, so floats higher. Wink


But despite this, is surprisingly dense.




*legs it*
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MrGin View Drop Down
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MrGin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:45pm
OK I made up ERP, it was only used to distinguish between the Polyester built Albacore and the Epoxy built Albacore as long side the wooden built Albacores, all of which are competitive at National Level.
Also cold moulded Albacore (AGBA, Red Cedar etc) or Plywood decks are in fact a composite material as well!
Phil A8152 "Albaholic"
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

 Sounds to me like you've got a potential situation that could be resolved by a number split or construction split on PN if it really bothers the rest of the club members enough.   Of course, if the guys buying a new boat don't like your decisions then they could always join another club which races Solos in a proper fleet... they'd be most welcome.  Wink

We already do this for the Phantom. We have a 'classic' Phantom (i.e. non-epoxy hull) which sails off 1047 and the 'epoxy' Phantom which sails off the published PY. As for the fleet, when they sail as a fleet, they sail as a fleet regardless of hull construction. The new hulls have revitalised our Solo fleet to the extent that they are regularly outnumber the Laser fleet.

Originally posted by rb_stretch

I've suspected that myself, but due to the fact that there are so many active old Solos I suspect you'll never get the averages to suggest a change. This in turn makes it very difficult for committees to make a change when there is no factual evidence to support it.

Correct, the same has been true in other classes as well. Notably the Fireball (still considered a bandit by a lot of people). Around 10-15 years ago they underwent a revolution going from a 'narrow' to a 'wide' bow, that combined with more modern building techniques and sail development meant the older boats were obsolete overnight. The PY has only really just caught up with these newer boats at there were still lots of older boats plugging away at club level so the PY was being based on that.

Originally posted by JimC

If someone upgrades from a ratty old Solo with tired sails, out of date rig, grubby centreboard and scratched rudder to a new boat I see a 5 - 10% improvement in performance.
What I have never seen is what happens when someone upgrades from an immaculately prepared old wooden hull with a new rig and all the rest of it to a new Solo so the only variable is the hull construction.

We have had this at Hunts with a couple of guys. They had old but well maintained and well setup Solo's. They went out and bought new boats (Winder hulls I believe) and even they were saying the boat was significantly better than their old boat and they expect to be hit on PY as the newer boats start to work their way in to club fleets.
Paul
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 1:57pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Originally posted by transient

What's GRF then?

Wink


Gin Reinforced Fuller


Nah - Greatly Respected Fella Censored Nuke
Nick
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MrGin View Drop Down
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Posts: 23 		Post Options Post Options   Quote MrGin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 13 at 2:22pm
One thing the Albacore Class has being trying to avoid is the Phantom / Fireball situation so that older boats are not out classed. That is why you are not allowed carbon in or near the boat (except for small fittings).
 
Enterprise Carbon flyaway pole £100, Aluminium £10.
 
Allowing Carbon rudder stocks and foils, proably a little lighter but more expensive, this would start check book sailing.
 
Carbon masts, 3 times the price of Aluminium masts, which the leads to everyone having to but new masts. I see they are know allowed on the Blaze.
 
Laminated (non white) sails, again pushes out the non check book sailors.
 
New boats are about £1k cheaper the a GP14, that's a lot of boat for your money!
Phil A8152 "Albaholic"
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