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Olympic Classes for 2012

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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Olympic Classes for 2012
    Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 7:34am

In terms of your general thesis that sailing participation is increasing in boats that might be regarded as "slow", I'd agree, although it's also clear that a significant number of the most active sailors prefer "fast" boats and the situation is better characterised as a polarisation than as a simple trend. However I don't agree that this analysis leads to a conclusion that the Olympics should be packed out with boats suitable for the average sailors.

Regarding your suggested model sports, I'd struggle to view walking,  keep fit/yoga or, snooker/pool/billiards as sports, estimable pastimes as they may or may not be. Of your remaining list, with the exception of golf, I'm not at all sure they are growing as participation sports. My village football club recently closed due to lack of members, as an example.

Along with others, I have in the past analysed some Sports England figures for another sport (climbing) and found them to be clearly wrong (exaggerated in that case) by a factor of 2-3. Furthermore the figures show growth while other markers such as equipment sales show a steady state. There's a general consensus in climbing that the official figures are plain wrong.  It's actually quite hard to get accurate figures in non-competitive, non-club-based sports.

Hence while the desire for fact-based analysis is commendable, it has to be recognised that sports participation statistics can be confusing and by no means reliable.

I think that in the demographic that participates in youth sailing you'd find a very significant proportion of  young sailors snowboard or have an interest in snowboarding, regardless of Sports England statistics. Contrariwise I haven't met that many youths who golf and sail (although doubtless some will instantly popup here). Snowboarding has regular mainstream TV coverage in the UK, which sailing no longer enjoys, and presents a good example of how an outdoor sport can be presented to a young audience. It seems to have no problem maintaining an exciting top-end image and a more accessible reality for beginners.

I'm old enough to have been part of the original windsurfing boom and bust cycle . The increasing focus on high-wind sailing meant that even in the UK's windy climate, people were sailing less and less and sitting around waiting for the wind more and more. Most eventually got bored and went away. In my case I started sailing keelboats and later dinghies. Whether that process constituted an "image" problem for windsurfing is a somewhat semantic question.  In any case, it doesn't translate to a problem with skiff-type boats - rather the reverse.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 9:18am

We should use the Olympics as a show case not just a representation of grass routes.

When I see fishing on TV blokes are hauling out huge fish in blue waters; this dosn't represent sitting around for tiddlers on the canal.

If I watch cycling I see people going up Alp D'Huez or skinny carbon disc wheels flying around velodromes not people riding heavy mountain bikes down the seafront.

The images sports show case don't represent the reality for the average participant ... they should inspire ... a 470 is not inspirational.

 

 

BTW the 49er wasn't booming before it became Olympic ....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

We should use the Olympics as a show case not just a representation of grass routes.

When I see fishing on TV blokes are hauling out huge fish in blue waters; this dosn't represent sitting around for tiddlers on the canal.

If I watch cycling I see people going up Alp D'Huez or skinny carbon disc wheels flying around velodromes not people riding heavy mountain bikes down the seafront.

The images sports show case don't represent the reality for the average participant ... they should inspire ... a 470 is not inspirational.

 

 

BTW the 49er wasn't booming before it became Olympic ....

 

Exactly....

I'm now spending a lot of time around people at the Ski center, a fair proportion kids i the age range 5-16; Lots oask me about sailing as I usually have some old ECPR shirt on; the questions comments are loosly...

 

1, Is sailing expensive.  - Nope; you can start cheeply

2, Is sailing difficuly - no, not to start with; if you can Ski / Snowboard, you can sail

3, You sail cats, are they difficult to sail as they go faster (there is SOME understanding of our sport) - No; there are some slightly different skills but the answer to 2 still applies.

Some wander off at this point talking about "when it gets warm, maybe I will have a go"....

4, The olympics....  Thoes skiff things that kepts falling over; they look difficult to sail; are they?  Yes, but it is all relative...

5, Those Cats at the olympics looked fun when there was some wind.  Why are they not at the 2012 games.. (again there is SOME appreciation out there, but they have probably heard me scheming on my phone after/ before lessons...).  It's complicated...

6, Some then will ask AGAIN about the 9ers (Skiffs); The crux is that they are genuinly interested in the "falling in" aspect...  At this point we sometimes used the same ski run analogy as above.  green/blue/red/balack and OP...

They liked the idea of spectacular and difficult classses to sail; the reason being they see spactacular is DIFFICULT and you fall off/over....

SOME skiiers watch Ski Sunday to marvel at the skill and gain some pointers to apply to their racing / technique.  Most watch waiting for someone to fall over or marvel at the speed they go on pistes they are sking down at a 1/4 of the speed.  

For those of us that Ski / Ride, what do you talk about more...  That fantastic easy red you shussed all the way down, or that balck run / coulior you aced / or nearly killed your self on/in? 

I spend a lot more time talking to people in lessons (to the kids I teach on Saturday mornings) about the difficult stuff than I do about pootling around on blue runs practicing edge technique.....  They all want to know how to Ski moguls / black runs / get to the top of the slope.  They don't want to go slow; the clever ones understand that you need to get the technique right first. 

My view is that the spectacular classes attract people (backed up by comments I get at the Ski center from kids) but we need to have the imfrastructure in place to keep people once they try sailing.  

IMO we will never attact YOUNG people into the sport with boats going slow, even if the racing is close; the young want whizz, bang,  crash racing TO WATCH; once they are sailing, some will catch the "Racing" bug and then close racing IS attractive.  However, they will STILL want to sail a 49er / Tornado / F18 / F16 / A class or MPS.

 

I would love to see an olympic regatta with the following boats (or something like them) for each sex:

Laser
Fat persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD?
49er
MPS
A Class
Tornado
Match racing

Problem is that the average size of people across the workd varies; the asian nations my struggle to find an FD crew!!  

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 12:41pm

Scooby

You wrote "Fat persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD"

As an ex- second row, having had the great priviledge of sailing in the Star (only for a season unfortunately) I object most strongly to your derogatory and erroneous use of the term "fat".

I challenge you to go into the changing room of any good rugby team anywhere in Britain and call the highly trained athletes you will meet there as fat. If you get out in one piece you may wish to reconsider your  prejudices. Yet the lighttest palyer on the team would be considered a sailng heavyweight (scrum halves now weigh in at 80kg+). Similarly with basketball, handball and other sports for non-dwarves!

Unfortunately, sailing seems has increasingly become a sport for lightweights. Heavyweight sportsmen are being kept out of the sport at the very time when there is an increase in the size and weight of fit (not fat) athletes. It is as if we wanted to watch rugby played only by fly halves, boing without the heavyweights or restrict the Olympic high jump event to vertically challenged athletes.

 

That said the FD is a remarkable boat for heavyish crews - the opposite of the skiffs because the FD is a remarkably stable boat. There are not that many true heavyweight boats - FD, Tempest and of course the Star (tounge in cheek I would claim that the SB3 is a fine 2 man heavyweight boat).

Maybe it is time for something new. Who will design and market a new modern boat for two 100/110 kg plus sailors. In the meantime the Star remains the supreme test for heavyweight sailors and as such fully merits its place in the Olympics

Gordon

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 1:07pm
>>Maybe it is time for something new. Who will design and market a new modern boat for two 100/110 kg plus sailors. In the meantime the Star remains the supreme test for heavyweight sailors and as such fully merits its place in the Olympics<<

The RS K6 meets that perfectly
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 1:21pm
Originally posted by gordon

Scooby

You wrote "Fat persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD"

As an ex- second row, having had the great priviledge of sailing in the Star (only for a season unfortunately) I object most strongly to your derogatory and erroneous use of the term "fat".

I challenge you to go into the changing room of any good rugby team anywhere in Britain and call the highly trained athletes you will meet there as fat. If you get out in one piece you may wish to reconsider your  prejudices. Yet the lighttest palyer on the team would be considered a sailng heavyweight (scrum halves now weigh in at 80kg+). Similarly with basketball, handball and other sports for non-dwarves!

Unfortunately, sailing seems has increasingly become a sport for lightweights. Heavyweight sportsmen are being kept out of the sport at the very time when there is an increase in the size and weight of fit (not fat) athletes. It is as if we wanted to watch rugby played only by fly halves, boing without the heavyweights or restrict the Olympic high jump event to vertically challenged athletes.

 

That said the FD is a remarkable boat for heavyish crews - the opposite of the skiffs because the FD is a remarkably stable boat. There are not that many true heavyweight boats - FD, Tempest and of course the Star (tounge in cheek I would claim that the SB3 is a fine 2 man heavyweight boat).

Maybe it is time for something new. Who will design and market a new modern boat for two 100/110 kg plus sailors. In the meantime the Star remains the supreme test for heavyweight sailors and as such fully merits its place in the Olympics

Gordon

 

I used to play Scrum 1/2 for my district; the Scrum used to call themselves the fat-blokes; sorry if you do not approve of the term.....

 

I propse a larger persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD.

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 2:45pm

There is a world of difference between being called fat or any other term and using the same term in a self depreciating way.

My point is that dinghy and sportsboat sailing has developed a somewhat derogatory attitude to heavyweight sailors. Imagine the protests  if someone had described the foiling Moth as a fast boat for acrobatic runts... rather than as a highly technical foiling singlehanded class for lightweight sailors.

To go back to the comparaison with rugby - modern international scrum halves are about the same weight nowadays as an open sized flanker in the 60s. At the same time the average optimum weight for dinghy classes has declined, and in sportsboat/keelboat classes has been artificially reduced by weight limits.

 

Gordon

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Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 3:13pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

IMO we will never attact YOUNG people into the sport with boats going slow, even if the racing is close; the young want whizz, bang,  crash racing TO WATCH; once they are sailing, some will catch the "Racing" bug and then close racing IS attractive.  However, they will STILL want to sail a 49er / Tornado / F18 / F16 / A class or MPS.



The same is true for any sport. We all watch the pinacles of respective sports where you generaly have the fittest/fastest/best. Take motorsport for instance. I am sure we all marvel at how they get round the track at the speeds they do but for most of us the closest we will come to that is going down the local karting track and having a whizz round with our mates in something that is considerable slower and less powerful (but a whole lot of fun).

For those who want to take it seriously then get the chequebook out.

Sailing is the same, we all look at Ben, the Yngling girls, the AC boats and (whilst opinion and taste may differ) we all probably think 'nice' then we go back to our chosen steeds which, in general, are far far cheaper (although in this sport not slower) and go out for a sail an enjoy ourselves.

Sailing is relatively unique among sports in that with certain classes (Laser for one) you can go out and buy equipment that is capable of winning the worlds/olympics for a relatively small outlay. The cost of getting yourself up to that standard is what is prohibitive for most of us.

Just my 2p as always.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 7:04pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

[QUOTE=gordon]

I propse a larger persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD.

 

 

 

Propose anything you like, you'll never get the FD class back into the Olympics. Worldwide, the FD is a vibrant, thriving class with great camaraderie. In the UK all Olympic status did was destroy the class at club level. What we have - partly thanks to the pressure of Olympic development - is a class that has arguably the best understood and developed rig of any symmetric boat, and is thus an absolute joy to sail in any conditions. Olympics? No thanks...

No FD? No Comment!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 08 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by NeilP

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

[QUOTE=gordon]

I propse a larger persons 2 up boat - dare I say FD.

 

 

 

Propose anything you like, you'll never get the FD class back into the Olympics. Worldwide, the FD is a vibrant, thriving class with great camaraderie. In the UK all Olympic status did was destroy the class at club level. What we have - partly thanks to the pressure of Olympic development - is a class that has arguably the best understood and developed rig of any symmetric boat, and is thus an absolute joy to sail in any conditions. Olympics? No thanks...

 

Neil,

If the large-sailors wasnt to sail 2 up; they need something to sail.  I know one of the FD's crews and they don't want to be back in the ollies.  If there is a need for a 2 up boat somehting like the FD is the solution 

 

 

Gordon,

I don;t disagree that the size/weight of Rugby players has increased, that is because the sprot IS a power sport; bigger is better as long as they can still get around the field quick enough.

Sailing is not the same; unless someone designs a boat that has massive sails and IS a heavy boat (or has controls that do not allow you to de-power it), we will not have a boat that IS suitable for the larger person.... 

Technology has moved on, big boats do not HAVE to be heavy, and light boats favour lghter sailors (or runts as you call them).  I'm ligher than average, I do not appreciate being called a runt thanks

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