Equipment committee has done it's voting.

As before their decisions have to be ratified by the ISAF council and back in May the council threw out their slate for what we have now in terms of events.

They have voted on the classes now and it's all as before except ...

Womens Double hander 29erXX 11 votes 470 2 Votes

The Womens Committee had Voted

29erXX 7 votes 470 6 Votes

The womens keelboat for match racing looks to be the Elliot 6 what ever that is ...

So ... all cllasses as before but we could see the girls in 29erXX instead of 470s if the council backs the equipment committees recommendation ... we'll see.

When was the first grumps?

Well these are all good points and ones which I am sure the equipment committee considered.

Still; be aware that this still has to go through council ...

I'm here in my office but the grapevine works fast these days ...

The meetings are public so anyone can sit at the back and listen.

I don't know when the council meeting is; probably the end of the week ...

29er website is carrying the news, nothing on sailing.org yet.

http://www.29er.org/ - http://www.29er.org/

Odd that none of the other classes that turned up for the trial in Hyeres submitted ... the 29erXX was up against other classes in Hyeres but not at this meeting.

What happened to the GT60 et al ...?

No I don't think so; it's almost as if they didn't bother or know that they had to submit or that they thought that they cound't submit for the womens double hander after the womens double hander high performance event didn't get nominated in May.

From http://www.29er.org/index.php/News.html - http://www.29er.org/index.php/News.html

News

Why didn't the RS800 feature?

I would be interested to hear why the other classes didn't present themselves.

I think the Hyeres trial was really too light winds for any sensible conclusions.

Perhaps they couldn't as they were not ISAF recognised?

Classes are listed here http://www.sailing.org/boatclasses.php?PHPSESSID=7f9369ad743524e294358946be2389c9 - http://www.sailing.org/boatclasses.php?PHPSESSID=7f9369ad743 524e294358946be2389c9

Perhaps they just didn't know/bother/fancy it any more ...

At the Sail for Gold regatta the 49ers and the RSX were in the harbour whilst the 470's and Finns were out in the bay.

Perhaps they would also bring the 29er into the flatter waters of the harbour. 

It seems a little odd to me that certain people would go to the trouble of developing a boat especially for the trials and then not submit for the final selection. I would be interested to hear the whole story behind this, as it appears ISAF are maybe not being as transparent as they should be.*

* I've done no research whatsoever into this, this is just judging from the comments made on this thread.  

I suspect many gave up once the womens double hander high performance event didn't make the slate and didn't realise that they could submit for the womens double hander ...

When I saw the list of submitted equipment some time ago I was surprised to see no RS800/GT60/Daemon Cherub ...

I really hope the 470 keeps its slot, and that is coming from a former 29er sailor.

From the reports I heard and the sailors i spoke to, the 29erxx was the least favourite boat, from what I heard the 800 was the sailors choice.

I might be biased as I am a former member of staff at RS/LDC, and now working at the builders of the 800, I thought the reworked 800 was an excellent boat for the girls to sail. The boat which was at the trials was developed further, but never brought to the public eye due to the decisions ISAf took at the time, but being one of only 3 people to sail it, I can safely say that it was an excellent boat!

.

So at the last meeting council discarded the the recommendation of the equipment committee and we lost the cat.

All the sailors cam out and back the eqipmemnt committee as the people who knew best.

Now the eqipment committee and the womens committee recommend the 29erXX over the 470 ... do we still back them, I do ...

There was an 800 popped out for a blast during the Ovi event at Grafham the other week with sail number "2012" and the 2012 flags on it. Was that it?[/QUOTE]

Did it have a mast head kite and a square top main, plus other things i wont mention?

The loss of the 470 is a real shame.  Kinda goes with the "dumbing down" of sailing in general if you ask me...my club is one of the largest inland venues in the country with very big Fireball and F15 fleets yet we seem to almost ignore symmetric spinnakers when it comes to training.  This won't help...as far as I can tell the whole RYA squad machine will now be churning out girls who have no idea whatsoever about flying a traditional kite and probably no desire to learn, unless they want to go lead mining.

I've said before on this forum and it even made it into the magazine that the depth of skill required to fly a symmetric kite is just miles ahead of the two rope "up down, in out" ethos of an asymmetric.  I sail some of the lairiest asymm boats about and yes, whilst they are great fun and very fast, the tactical choices and technical moves you can pull off in a symmetric boat make it so much more interesting...especially in a big fleet.  Pitchfork hoist or Aussie drop anyone?

Question is, will the men's 470 be next?  Personally, I'd have liked to have seen a symmetric boat for both men and women as well as a skiff, or even a mixed class...just look at the dynamics going on in the mixed badminton or equestrianism for a really entertaining watch of men and women competing on totally equal terms.

What could be really interesting is if it blows snot in Weymouth and we have a repeat of the 49er medal race (with more powerful boats this time mind!) whilst the girls in the 29ers serve up some whuppasss on the boys!

Interesting to see how other sports are going "back to basics", F1 losing traction control etc, "pure" cars like Catherhams and Ariels stripped down to basics, and singlespeed, fully rigid mountain bikes enjoying massive popularity on the trails whilt London's streets are totally full of non-braked, retro styled fixed gear road bikes.  I wonder if in 10 year's time someone will rediscover the symmetric kite that suddenly makes a really good crew look like a superhero?

From the RS800 point of view....we came away from Hyeres with the clear view that the 800 and the XX were favourites (perhaps more selectable as established SMODs), but that the sailors felt the xx was abit small and underpowered and the 800 a bit too easy - the girls wanted the full on bit of kit!

We then trialled a square topped main, mast head kite, and even solid 49er style wide wings - in terms of performance it was closer to 49er than 800 certainly in the light and medium. My daughter, Frances, did some of the testing. The main and mast head kite were featured in a Y/Y report last summer on the 800 - but the solid wings were parked pending further ISAF trials for the high performance slot - we were repeatedly told there would have to be more trials.

We then fully parked any further development last November when the high performance slot was lobbed by Council. At least one other camp that I knew of working on "dedicated" boats also stopped spending - as you would expect.

We heard nothing more from ISAF until the last minute for submissions. At that point  we took the view that putting forward submissions for the double-handed (470) slot was a political manouvre, as (we had been told) further trials would be held where new products or significant mods to existing classes would be considered alongside others for the high performance slot. How wrong and mis-informed we were.

For Frances (who won gold at the ISAF Youth Worlds this summer (29er)), it would be mixed feelings: Whereas she believes the XX could be better, she might prefer the style of sailing to the 470. For the 100s of women campaigning 470s around the world with huge investment in time and equipment it would be soul-destroying. For me it would be a shame that the girls would not get the ultimate kit, and frustration that the process will have been a victim of confusion and indecision.

Still who knows what Council will decide. 

Nick.

Well - of course - especially for those who started from scratch: Not the first time it has happened or the last I suppose.

From my perspective, we got to find out a lot more about the potential of the 800 hull (it was fun as well)- and what could be done in years to come if the class want to inject some performance...not anytime soon of course - the class were fully up to speed over the process and thus are aware of the development that was done.

For others, I guess there are prototypes gathering dust. If you were a betting man, Rick, how do you think council will go and why?

Nick

I think it will be close, either the ISAF council will stick with the 470 becuse they have had too much change recently as it is and they can't handle any more.  Or they will have realised the hole they have dug themselves into and try and dig themselves out by putting the XX in. 

Either way, because of the events they have chosen they will never end up with a mix of classes that most people will be happy with.  The other thing that needs to be balanced is the cost of changing classes and the rebuilding of infrastructure that will go with it.  Not a big problem in the UK, but for a lot of countries this could be prohibitive. 

One final point, the ISAF youth worlds will be held in 420s not 29ers - they seem to be scared of having both for some reason?!? - for the next couple of years (correct me if I am wrong) so we will have a whole age range of kids coming through youth scemes sailing a different kind of boat to what they are potentially going to race at the olympics.  That could well be the kind of confused mess ISAF may want to avoid (although this does not appear to have stopped them so far)!!

I have no idea which way they will jump.

I guess if they are really worried about being progressive and media friendly they will choose the XX.

If keeping most nations happy is the flavour of the day then 470s.

No idea really but I will plump for the 29er XX getting the nod; no doubt your daughter would have a good shout in that ...

Referring back a few posts ago about youth sailing worlds I think I saw somewhere on the isaf site that there is a proposal that 420's and 29'ers will both be included which makes much more sense to me.

All very interesting. A skiff class for the girls sounds like a very attractive idea but as others have said it could cause problems for some countries, at least in the short term. I looked up the results of the ISAF Youth Worlds to see how many entries there were for the girls 29er event and there were only 18, compared to 25 for the boys 29er, and 40 girls in laser radials and 45 boys in lasers - perhaps there were limits set? - but it seems to suggest that girls are sailing skiff-type boats in relatively few countries.This could then mean that it will be some time before lots of countries are able to put forward competitive female skiff sailors for olympic selection.

Comments about the suitability of olympic classes to cope with wide wind ranges also have to be valid considering the culmination of 4 years preparation rests on approx. 1 week's sailing - and the conditions can so often be too windy or very light. Sailing looks a pretty stupid sport if, when the actual event comes around, the boats can't cope too well!

Not that that will be a problem at Weymouth of course! And perhaps the 29erXX does sail well in all conditions anyway.

If that's what they want, they'll do it. It was done for the 49er, after all! My opinion, for what it's worth, is that Council will overturn the Equipment Committee vote and keep the 470. IOC emphasis has apparently changed from media-friendliness to participation, which would favour the 470 as things stand. Have to wait and see, I guess.

Neil

There was a submission process prior to the November meeting but after the May one; I can't remember the deadline but we put the MPS forward.

There is no such thing as recognised classes now just ISAF classes or not; I believe the criteria was that any class submitted had to be capable of being an ISAF class by the games so no rules or regs have been broken or bent by the XX submission.

Coverage

http://sailjuice.squarespace.com/home/2008/11/12/29erxx-set-to-topple-the-470.html - http://sailjuice.squarespace.com/home/2008/11/12/29erxx-set- to-topple-the-470.html

I think there is a very misleading pro-Tornado bias here.

The difference in cost is mostly based on allegedly needing to replace the 470 parts more often, but there's no way you need a new 470 hull every year and 4 centreboards and rudders. That's just nonsense. I also don't believe that one set of ropes would last you 4 years in a Tornado.

Yes, the costs to enter the T class is a little more; but you can buy a boat for around 13K GBP and you COULD take that to the next games ();

470 will be about 1/2 the price and you will throw it away 12 months later. 

Games are roughtly 3 years time so you'll pay 50% for for the duration of the campaign; I assume the value of 470's drops quickly as they become uncompetitive; the Tornado does not.

Totally agree that you have to spend more INITIALLY to get into the T class, but resale values are better. 

Headline, initial cost is greater, cost-of-ownership is less. 

I always make my buying decisions on cost-of-ownership as IMO it is the only sensible way to do it.

Where are you quoting that from?

Yeah, I'd ask Nick Rogers and Nic Asher, both much better 470 sailors than this guy, whether or not they buy 4 new boats per Olympic cycle.

I'm fairly sure the answer would be no.

470s last way longer than a year at a highly competitive level. Nick and Joe considered using the same boat in China as they did in Athens(don't know whether they did).

Nic and Elliot used the same boat to win the worlds 2 years apart. Nick and Joe, and Nathan and Mal also used the same boats at both events.

The whole, 'they go soft' rubbish is just that. Rubbish. They may have another boat to train with, but most Olympic programs require more than one boat anyway because of travel to events, so no cost difference because of that.

Personally I am a great supporter of cats at the Games, and I think making the Tornado a SMOD is a mistake, or at least a great pity.  And I take your point about through-life cost of ownership.  But, realistically, the initial purchase price is so high only Olypic wannabes are going to get one.  And, because they are a quality product, even resale values are high.  That means that club hot shots, young hopefuls etc can not easily buy into the class.  In comparison a second hand 470 can be picked up fairly cheaply.  Okay, they aren't popular in the UK, but globally the 470 is a popular boat, partly because cost of entry into the class is comparitively low. 

Kostas Trigonis didn't win the 470 Worlds in 2002. If memory serves me right, that was the year Simon Cooke (NZL) won them in Sardinia.  Trigonis won them crewing for Andreas Kosmatopolous (sp?) in 1995, but that was 13 years ago and 470 longevity has improved greatly since then.

Nick and Joe have done 3 olympic cycles now and they haven't had 16 boats, I'm fairly sure. As far as I know, it would be about half that.

The links confirm Kosmatopoulos (and Trigonis) were world champions in 1995, but runners-up in 2002.

Lots of people outside the olympic cucle sail the T; we have one couple at our club sho have just upgraded their Tornado.

Any "olympic mannabe" is going to need to campaign the boat around the EU (for UK based) at minumum and so the start up cost is small in comparison.

All this 470 v T costing debate is very interesting but at present I don't see how this relates to a discussion about 2012 Olympic classes ... until of course the 11th medal appears.

I have to say the cat lobby have gone very quiet ... perhaps thay have been told not to rock the boat at the ISAF conference whilst ISAF get the 11th medal lined up with the IOC ...

Linky no worky ...

There could be some interesting lobbying when (if) the IOC give sailing back the 11th event, and the 470 (W) goes up against the big T to win their Olympic place back!

Binning the 470 and not replacing it with a symetric boat would be outrageous. There are more symetric boats sailed at clubs round the world than there will assymetric ones for a very long time. There are more places in this country that sail or are suitable for sailing a symetric dinghy than there are are large open reservoirs and sea clubs and i would think that the rest of the world must have it's share of duckponds too.

All that this sort of thing does is push sailing down the assymetric route to the detriment of many sailors, clubs and classes.

I can accept that the 470 may have done it's time as an olympic class but why not replace it with something like the Fireball?

Fireballs do not represent an improvement on 470s even if they did have the required international spread and any backing behind them. 470s are lovely boats; Fireballs are a bit funny-looking and not as nice to sail IMO.

I agree with your other points though. It would be a real shame to see the 470s go, even if it's only the women's discipline for now - I have lots of happy memories of the class. I hope ISAF keep it in.

Fireballs do not represent an improvement on 470s even if they did have the required international spread and any backing behind them. 470s are lovely boats; Fireballs are a bit funny-looking and not as nice to sail IMO.[/QUOTE]

Apart from being very wet i found it quite a pleasant surprise to sail. My theory behind it as olympic boat was based around:

1) It's about the only class besides the 470 and 420 that does have a large international following in most continents.

2) They are arguably more tolerant of lightweights than the 470. Strength issues can be got around (2:1 transom split main laser style for example)

3) They are not necesserily an expensive boat to sail. Certainly not in comparison to the 470, and no comparison at all with the FD.

4) They are sailed - in this country at least - pretty much on every largish piece of water and quite a few less large ones.

It's all hearsay anyway and would never happen which is a shame as i think it's a boat worth throwing intio the mix.

The other thing i'd like to see is an olympic development class. That would be interesting!

Maybe we know more than we are letting on.

I susepct there is somthing going on ....

Originally posted by Villan Or maybe you know exactly what the rest of us know, and are too busy skiing to bother making a fuss atm?

Not skiing that much at present - 2 cracks in my toes / fractures at the Cat open have slowed me down somewhat; only doing a few hours a week, and non this week yet.  First time I put my Boos on they could hear me outside!

Affordable established International class sailed by women in a large number of countries on several continents. With sail numbers in the 30,000, and a well established Womens Worlds, sounds like a shoe in for the........ SNIPE!

Gordon

Jim,

Below if from the submission document ... this overode the above.

That last line give them all the freedom they need to select anything ...

Nice try Grumpfs but the meeting dosn't start until 14:30

From the front page story, criteria taken into consideration...

"

Factors for the Council to consider in making their decision are:

• Only International Classes shall sail in the Olympic Sailing Competition
• Criteria for selecting Events & Equipment is:

  (i) allow athletes around the world, male, female and of different sizes and weights to participate;

  (ii) give the best sailors in each country the opportunity to participate in readily accessible equipment;

  (iii) combine both traditional and modern events and classes, to reflect, display and promote competitive sailing;

  (iv) include at least two events for men and two events for women designed to maximise excitement, innovation, public and media appeal; and

  (v) meet the International Olympic Committee's criteria (if any) for participation in the Olympic Programme and achieve the current International Olympic Committee's objective (if any) for the minimum level of participation for women;"

Point iv - presumably the two "exciting" men's events are 49er and RSX (now the big T has gone). If two "exciting" women's events are required, the writing could be on the wall for the 470...