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Is Racing Allowed?
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zeon View Drop Down
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Posts: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Racing Allowed?
    Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 3:39pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

I'm amazed.......sailors arguing about rule interpretation, who'd have thought. Wink

It's another division, cracks appearing everywhere and all products of fear and anger. Hopefully, one day we will be able to focus on what we have in common again.

Best post on this whole thread  Smile
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polc1410 View Drop Down
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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote polc1410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 4:09pm
Originally posted by Simon Lovesey

 

Agree, pity RYA have not publicly supported HISC here. The club have put a robust plan in place with the appropriate risk assessments. This is all down to interpretation of the guidelines, many clubs are finding this C19 situation a big challenge and need clarity.
But the RYA can't back them if its not legal. 

Its hard to feel you give an unbiased opinion, when your business is dependant on people sailing to generate income.

The club's plan can be as robust as possible.  The risks can be minimised to infinitesimally small.  Doesn't matter if it is illegal.     A driving instructor, in a dual controlled car, on a deserted road with no other cars, pedestrains or road users can't legally teach a 16year 11month and 28 day year old to drive even though the risk will be no greater a week later.
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Posts: 147 		Post Options Post Options   Quote polc1410 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 4:26pm
Originally posted by fab100

I'm trying to workout this morning how people queuing for 24 hours outside Primark (FFS) in the proximity of the same stranger for hours on end is not a 'gathering', but a load of boats tens or more of metres (apart from a couple of minutes for a start, but even then 2m apart) across an an hour or so is a gathering.
The words in the law that matter are " to undertake any other activity with each other"   we may all be very capable of realising there is probably a far bigger risk in the queue from Primark than on the startline of a race.  But that doesn't make it legal.  So if I was daft enough to join the queue in Primark, while there are other people there, I am not there to shop with them.  If I join a start line with 7 boats on it, I can't reasonably claim that racing is not an activity, or that I'm not there to race with the other boats... can I?  That is the fundamental purpose of racing (the way we do it) is it not?

Originally posted by fab100

Extending the same logic, only 6 family groups  
To be accurate it is 6 people unless they are all from the one household or one linked housed (aka a bubble).  You can't have 6 families.

Originally posted by fab100

are permitted to go for a walk around the Devil's Punchbowl or whatever, even though there's acres of it.
If they are there to undertake that activity as a collective group - say a charity walk - they are there to undertake the activity with each other.  If they have turned up and there are other people who happen to be there (just like the shop) and so if the others immediately left they would still continue their activity they weren't there to do the activity with others.

Originally posted by fab100

I refer to my previous post about the stupidity of hard and fast rules and sense of a principles based approach. This is not, thankfully, the USA, a country dominated by lawyers although some would like it to be, it seems. Be careful what you wish for.

So we all thought it was a bit crazy that we could meet 1 other person in the local park, but couldn't meet 1 other person in our own garden.  The reason given was simple - one is easy to police, the other isn't.  The same applies now.  The rules as they stand for gatherings of 6 people are not too difficult to police.  If you start to say "unless you are participating in a sport which can socially distance"    will you get cycling/running groups running major events and saying "keep 2m apart" and hoping for the best.

If you want to look for loopholes - you need a country dominated by lawyers.  If everyone just does their bit and waits till July when more stuff is likely to be permitted - you wouldn't need lawyers to defend you / find the loop holes.
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by polc1410

Originally posted by fab100

I'm trying to workout this morning how people queuing for 24 hours outside Primark (FFS) in the proximity of the same stranger for hours on end is not a 'gathering', but a load of boats tens or more of metres (apart from a couple of minutes for a start, but even then 2m apart) across an an hour or so is a gathering.
The words in the law that matter are " to undertake any other activity with each other"   we may all be very capable of realising there is probably a far bigger risk in the queue from Primark than on the startline of a race.  But that doesn't make it legal.  So if I was daft enough to join the queue in Primark, while there are other people there, I am not there to shop with them.  If I join a start line with 7 boats on it, I can't reasonably claim that racing is not an activity, or that I'm not there to race with the other boats... can I?  That is the fundamental purpose of racing (the way we do it) is it not?

Originally posted by fab100

Extending the same logic, only 6 family groups  
To be accurate it is 6 people unless they are all from the one household or one linked housed (aka a bubble).  You can't have 6 families.

Originally posted by fab100

are permitted to go for a walk around the Devil's Punchbowl or whatever, even though there's acres of it.
If they are there to undertake that activity as a collective group - say a charity walk - they are there to undertake the activity with each other.  If they have turned up and there are other people who happen to be there (just like the shop) and so if the others immediately left they would still continue their activity they weren't there to do the activity with others.

Originally posted by fab100

I refer to my previous post about the stupidity of hard and fast rules and sense of a principles based approach. This is not, thankfully, the USA, a country dominated by lawyers although some would like it to be, it seems. Be careful what you wish for.

So we all thought it was a bit crazy that we could meet 1 other person in the local park, but couldn't meet 1 other person in our own garden.  The reason given was simple - one is easy to police, the other isn't.  The same applies now.  The rules as they stand for gatherings of 6 people are not too difficult to police.  If you start to say "unless you are participating in a sport which can socially distance"    will you get cycling/running groups running major events and saying "keep 2m apart" and hoping for the best.

If you want to look for loopholes - you need a country dominated by lawyers.  If everyone just does their bit and waits till July when more stuff is likely to be permitted - you wouldn't need lawyers to defend you / find the loop holes.


in other words, the law is truly an ass. Or at least a clumsy blunderbus. I’m not trying to find loopholes. I’m not a HISC member. I’m not breaking the law. Perhaps more fool me.  That does not mean I have to like it. I’m just pointing out the illogicality of it all. But I accept it hacks me off that, collateral damage, we are constrained from an activity of negligible risk because many cannot understand or won’t apply some basic principles. 
Great book for Club Sailors here
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 8:08am
From gov.uk
1.5 What is a criminal offence?

It is a criminal offence to:

  • meet indoors with anyone who is not a member of your household or, from 13 June, your support bubble, except for specific exceptions set out in law
  • meet outdoors in a group of more than six with people who are not in your household or support bubble, except for specific exceptions set out in law
  • incite others to break the rules by e.g. inviting people to a party
  • threaten others with infection by coronavirus, for example by coughing or spitting in their direction
If inviting others to a party is a criminal offence then is putting out a NoR?
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 9:15am
Better call the fun police then. 

If you are members of the same club, and sailing on the same piece of water, then you're there just as much 'together'. If you believe all that is required is to be doing the same activity then you'd be a hypocrite to sail at your own club with more than 6 others and yet call HISC out on the internet.

On the other hand, if you're happy that sailing separate boats does not constitute a 'meeting' or 'gathering' during social sailing then in terms of virus transmission, morally and legally I see no line between X number of people leisure sailing and X number informal racing.

Edited by Mozzy - 17 Jun 20 at 9:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 9:42am
Nothing to do with the fun police.  But I don’t want a criminal record and nor do I want to be responsible for a local outbreak.  

I didn’t write the law, nor did I write the govt advice.  Whether you agree with it or not is moot, it is clear that meeting in a group of more than 6 is against the law.  Your defence that a pre-arranged race with a specific start time following a specific course is not a group meeting looks shaky to me.
As for the excuses of “It’s fun, the risk is low, others are doing it...”, that’s what drink drivers say too.

My wife and I have both lost our jobs due to CV.  Not because there is not work to do, but because it can’t be done safely.  Not furloughed, not on self-employed assistance - just out of work.  Quite frankly, the fact that you have to make do with 6 boat bunny races or training rather than a larger traditional race is a first world problem and complaining about it reeks of privilege and entitlement.
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 10:22am
Originally posted by A2Z

Nothing to do with the fun police.  But I don’t want a criminal record and nor do I want to be responsible for a local outbreak.  

I didn’t write the law, nor did I write the govt advice.  Whether you agree with it or not is moot, it is clear that meeting in a group of more than 6 is against the law.  Your defence that a pre-arranged race with a specific start time following a specific course is not a group meeting looks shaky to me.
As for the excuses of “It’s fun, the risk is low, others are doing it...”, that’s what drink drivers say too.

My wife and I have both lost our jobs due to CV.  Not because there is not work to do, but because it can’t be done safely.  Not furloughed, not on self-employed assistance - just out of work.  Quite frankly, the fact that you have to make do with 6 boat bunny races or training rather than a larger traditional race is a first world problem and complaining about it reeks of privilege and entitlement.
First world problem? Sorry, where are you living? 

And crikey, privilege and entitlement? Why are you using the social justice dictionary to discuss sailing?

The fact you've both lost your jobs and still have an internet connection and time to be telling people off on the internet is a privilege many even in the first world don't have. So if you think other posts 'reek' of privilege and entitlement then perhaps you should take a whiff of your own ramblings!

As it happens I am more than happy to make do with bunny races and training. I'll join in with club racing if it's there and convenient, but I'm also quite happy ducking out. I'm not championing it because I feel 'entitled' to it, I am just saying I don't think it is against the rules, or even the 'spirit of the rules'. 

I also agree with the law, and the advice. I don't agree with your interpretation of it. 

In the eyes of police will they view 50 members of a private club, congregating at that private club to do the same activity at the same time and in the confines of the club area any different whether that activity is a race or a leisure sail? Or will the police just look at people on the water and ask whether this is a gathering in terms of corona-virus health protection decide it's not really what the law is about? The line you are drawing is arbitrary and not even relevant to actual transmission risk.  

The line I am drawing (not in same boat  = not 'with') is at least based on rationale of virus transmission. 
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 10:36am
Would seem to me that this is an area where some clear advice from the RYA would not go amiss.  

Having trawled through the RYA website, notably the FAQ section, much of it is already out of date, and the specific question dinghy racers up and down the country are asking "Can more than 6 boats race against each other at one time?" is unanswered.

It would be great if they could address this point since I suspect many other clubs would like to move onto the next phase, like HISC have, and many of us would like a bit of guidance as to how Government rules should be applied, and we don't have an appetite for breaking the law.
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Posts: 237 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris_H Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 20 at 10:42am
I guess the questions are:-  Have HISC done a review of the event they held? Any lessons learned? Will they be running a similar event this weekend or in the next few weekends? Will they modify anything as a result of lessons learned? Would the committee have done things differently following the current spotlight on them. 
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