Is Racing Allowed?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13599
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 9:52am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Is Racing Allowed?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Is Racing Allowed?
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 12:02pm
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I thought racing, as an organised sporting event, would not be allowed at present. Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the govt policies in place, is this racing at Shustoke legal?
https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/229140/Shustoke-Sailing-Club-back-open-for-sailing" rel="nofollow - https://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/229140/Shustoke-Sailing-Club-back-open-for-sailing |
Replies:
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 12:13pm
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Would have thought Water Authority had final say, the article thanked them for allowing it to go ahead.
What rules are you applying? ------------- Robert |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 12:22pm
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I would have thought not....until Monday when 6 could race together.
I have long been thinking though that, at least for singlehanded,the block on racing is not the requirements of Covid 19 regulations during racing, but rather launching, safety, race management etc. It is next to impossible to get within 2m of another person while racing and keeping clear. The exceptions are opposite tack downwind and helm of one boat with crew of another in conditions when they are sat on opposite sides of the boat. Take it down to the Optimist....it just fails on the impossible....but only just: 1.12m wide with a boom of over 2m length. At max protruding 1.55m and the helm another metre to windward. Sheeting in reduces that protrusion....but not by much.....and the gap tends to get wider.... |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 1:15pm
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Been to several clubs with shore launching where social distancing would still be possible even with 12 boats, but, yes it does state 6 people and still maintain social distancing, would this apply to a sports venue? You are not in fact going to meet a specific person. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 1:57pm
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I think the main thing is the 2m rule for different households in race boxes and patrol boats. If you can avoid this then there is nothing that stops competitive sailing. There's a small issue with the 'meet with one other person from another household' and soon to be 'up to six people'. But it's unclear what constitutes 'meeting'. For example, I can go to the park to explicitly meet (2m apart) a friend, or go for a walk etc. Obviously there might be many people at the park also walking or jogging or whatever. But, it's fine as you're not there to 'meet' them. Are other boats at a sailing club like other joggers in a park? Or are they implicitly part of the same gathering? At what point do people in the same place for the same reason become part of the same gathering? It's all a bit grey. There would be a case that as soon as you publish official start time or an official event, then everyone participating is part of a singular gathering. The reality is, if you're outdoors, and well spaced, the transmission risk is low, and whether there are 20 people there out of coincidence or through design makes little difference. However, limiting gatherings to 2 (or soon to be 6) does make it a lot easier for police to break things up before groups become large and inhibitions are removed and the 2m rule goes out of the window. I don't recall club racing ever slowly morphing in to a situation where 50 people are hugging and kissing... although a FED week party is another matter! On the other hand, an informal race to a buoy and back with whoever happens to be on the water is plenty enough for me. I've long been of the opinion that NoR, SI's, flags and even results don't add much to my club racing experience and I've not missed them on the last couple outings at HISC. It's not a area I particularly want the club to push the rules on.
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 2:01pm
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I agree with A2Z
As soon as the club take ownership of several people using the facilities and put people on duty I think it becomes a gathering. I wouldn’t do it. If several people choose to see who is the fastest I think is different. The important thing for me is that the club stays out of it. Are they doing any harm? No. Are they breaking the rules? Yes, I think they are. |
Posted By: Jamie600
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 2:02pm
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I wondered the same last weekend as our club re-opened.
Everyone was maintaining distance, within their household units, however we were talking to each other (while maintaining distance). Current rules state you can exercise in a public place such as a park, while maintaining distance, but can only meet one person from outside your household, again at a distance. If you imagine the sailing club as a park, are we technically breaking the rules by 'meeting'? ------------- RS600 1001 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 2:10pm
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Thanks for the thoughts. This isn’t so much a question of whether it is safe or even sensible, but whether it is actually allowed. If you go for a free sail that seems analogous to joggers in a park, but if you schedule a race at a set time that seems much more like a gathering to me and regardless of whether you keep 2m apart I didn’t think that was allowed? |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 5:13pm
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Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 7:27pm
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The Government regs on exercise for June remain unchanged in that you can only play a sport against one other person, but you can now socially mix up to six from two different households. So e.g presumably family team tennis doubles is OK after all? Confusing. The RYA is encouraging competition on the water around individual time trials etc., and apparently it is OK for these to be "organised" informally by individuals used social media etc. I note the latest RYA doc on return to racing talks about e.g. gate starts in the context of sometime in the future when more organised racing is allowed. So I agree with Paramedic. I can't see how Shustoke's racing conforms with the rules.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 7:32pm
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Let's hope it doesn't get debated in the media, mind, would ease the pressure on Boris and Dom. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 7:53pm
The LTA have written to the DCMS today to seek clarification of exactly this.
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Posted By: nutonthetiller
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 9:00pm
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https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/sportsdevelopment/Web%20Documents/Guidance%20on%20Restarting%20Racing%20and%20COVID-19%20-%20V1.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/sportsdevelopment/Web%20Documents/Guidance%20on%20Restarting%20Racing%20and%20COVID-19%20-%20V1.pdf
RYA says racing allowed if follow guidelines
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 9:13pm
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Informal Racing. I don't think Shustoke are doing any harm. But what they have professed to be doing is not in my view in the spirit of the regulations until 1st June. But by attracting new members to join them to take part I think they could cause themselves problems and in the long run everybody if the wheels come off. I know they are operating a limit to the number of people on site, so if I was them I wouldn't be accepting new members - except possibly Dominic Cummings.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 10:15pm
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[QUOTE=NickM99] [---]The Government regs on exercise for June remain unchanged in that you can only play a sport against one other person, but you can now socially mix up to six from two different households.
Nick - can you share where you got that about about only playing a sport with one other person? Specifically you refer to the regulations. For me that means the legislation- I don’t recall reading that in the Act. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 29 May 20 at 10:46pm
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So I’ll answer my own question. From 1 Jun the situation changes and you can exercise or play sport in groups of up to six people (if you can social distance).
See para 1.5: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do/coronavirus-outbreak-faqs-what-you-can-and-cant-do |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 12:08am
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We've not had the legislation for the 1st of June on wards yet. But we've been told it's up to 6 people in England (no limit on number of households). How this will be worded is yet to be seen (by me at least). Since the 13th of May its been permissible to exercise with up to one other person from another household. And you've been able to meet up socially with one other person from another household, but must be in a public place. Legally in England there is no 2m law. Although 2m is still in Government guidance. So, two people sailing together from different households aren't breaking the law. |
Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 7:47am
you can't blame them for stealing the march on this.... travelling to events is going to take a hit, dinghy sailing in general probably is. Given the ageing demographic in dinghy sailing and Dougal's cliff edge fast approaching, it's probably a case for survival of the fittest (and least risk averse).
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 8:28am
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Whoever at that club thought that publishing a report and results was a good idea has done none of us any favours
This is the sort of thing that may raise questions Keep a low profile and be sensible |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 8:46am
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Posted By: NickM99
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 9:27am
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Sargesail: you are right! I can't find it now but must have been looking at an earlier version of the Gov guidance, though it did say "updated 29 May" at it's head. To pick up Mozzy's point, lawyers have been saying for some time that there is a disconnect between what the law actually says and different aspects of Government "guidance" which can go into more detail. The Government seems to be making new amendments as it goes along to the "Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) Regulations 2020." The last set were published on 13 May. I suppose that is where the latest changes as from 1 June will be enacted.
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Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 12:04pm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 1:29pm
| I’m not totally sure I would want someone who is racing at Shustoke to then visit or free sail at my club. I know that sounds harsh, but the vibe given is of casual indifference to safeguarding measures. |
Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 4:31pm
Have you read what they propose to do? It's hardly casual, and certainly not indifferent. Its quite onerous on whichever volunteers are in charge of the club. I'm not sure i'd like to be a duty officer or flag officer should something go wrong and someone starts asking questions which is why this doesn't alter my view that they have jumped the gun (Me as a huge advocate that we were never truly banned in the first place!). You have to admire the enthusiasm and the will to solve problems of those in charge. The only thing they really should have done is state that they are closed to new members.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 4:33pm
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Really? One person’s casual indifference (from a distance!) is another’s risk managed, appropriate activity.
I do think they’ve jumped the gun...Monday in heats of six was the time to start. But ‘casual indifference’ - no evidence either way. I’m not sure if the use of safeguarding was a deliberate choice but it does now have a narrow meaning in terms of child/vulnerable adult protection, and is perhaps not quite the right term here. |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 4:39pm
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Today's announcement is that the 6 meeting up from different households also applies to sport. "People from different households exercising together must remain at least two metres apart. Gatherings of more than six people from different households are still not permitted." Personally I have no issues with what Shustoke are doing, as long as people from different household are 2 m apart, then I see no greater risks than the same number of boats being at the club leisure sailing. But, considering you can achieve 95% of what Shustoke have done buy just allowing free sailing and turning a blind eye to informal racing, it seems to be a large reputation risk for little gain at this stage. It's a pretty grey area of law. As long as you're 2 m apart, does it matter if there are 2,6 or 50 people? Common sense tells you there is a lot of difference between 50 people at a sailing club staying 2 m apart than 50 people in a private garden for a BBQ after a few beers. Members of Shustoke would be welcome at HISC. Bit of drive mind you. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 5:03pm
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50 people at a club rigging, launching, sailing, coming ashore is obviously going to stretch the 2m rule more than 6 people. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 7:11pm
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Jonathan Van-Tam, deputy chief medical officer has asked people not to look for loop holes, to look out for each other. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 30 May 20 at 10:39pm
Or if there is space for 50 people to social distance then limiting it to six gains nothing. I’m not suggesting that the 6 is wrong or should be changed....just fed up with this sort of flawed logic. Especially as the 50 could be at the club independently without breaking the 6 person rule. |
Posted By: Neptune
Date Posted: 31 May 20 at 8:00am
Exactly that. ------------- Musto Skiff and Solo sailor |
Posted By: Cirrus
Date Posted: 31 May 20 at 9:31am
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Some clubs with a single ramp and a 'tight' dinghy park and other pinch points may have a real problem with a very modest number indeed at peak times - and even very possibly less than 6 at times without a lot of care by all participants. Other locations are however very open and it would be possible for much larger numbers of users to keep separation distances well above say 10m ! On the water there should be no good reason to get anywhere near less than 2m, even if informally 'racing' so all we are talking about here relates to 'dry land'. Those who are effectively hopeless or bloody minded at keeping their distance are quickly obvious to the significant majority who do act with sense. They are obvious wherever they are, when shopping, walking .. and yes even at sailing clubs. Everybody by now should know it when they experience it - and if concerned should politely remind transgressors of their shared obligations (obviously if safe to do so !). There is little special about sailing clubs and sailing that makes interactions with this naive and potentially dangerous minority any worse than elsewhere. If/when I became concerned at any time about such basic safety in this 'new normal' at a sailing club I would simply leave/avoid - as I would anywhere else.. Personally I think the 'previous' lockdown restrictions should have continued for some time yet given the high numbers still being infected every day in mainland UK but will sail now rather than just walk / run / cycle as a form of recreation. My overall risk level has not changed.
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Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 7:30am
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Sadly, all going pear-shaped on the Restart Sailing FB Group. Seems a shame as it has good intent. Like all of these types of groups (and here), it can quickly get heated and personal with many different views and interpretations .... ------------- |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 8:40am
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I think the 6 people gathering is causing some confusion. To me, at a sailing race the parts that would constitute a gathering or meeting would be a race briefing, where are in proximity, even 2m distance, for prolonged time. Like a church service, or BBQ etc. If this rule were to be in place for some time I would think it worthwhile to get some clarification of jut what constitutes a gathering. But, I rather expect it to change before we'll get a definitive answer.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 8:57am
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People getting hot under the collar is understandable, think of the implications of a outbreak at 'Shustoke'. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 9:39am
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We had a "line" start for what we considered to be an informal race ... no club involvement, in the harbour, with a synced watch "start", to be fair about 10 on the "line". Some Wag posted a comment on local social media which raised sensitive eyebrows from the harbour authority. So our WhatsApp group have agreed to no more than six and rabbit starts for the forseeable. With hindsight I can see how non-sailing sensibilities might be offended, though I cannot see the risk, but then I want to get racing. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 11:29am
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 11:56am
What exactly was it that caused the HM’s eyebrows to raise? |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 12:34pm
Our HM has been very supportive of us getting back on the water, though apparently looking for clear signals from the RYA. The line start and the numbers involved ... highlighted by a social media post by a non-sailor. To be frank we were probably all a little too enthusiastic when let off the hook. My reason for posting is that rabbit starts, numbers six or less out of sight of the public are less likely to provoke a reaction ... a lesson learned, and which can be passed onto others. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 12:53pm
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We're looking at pursuit races, where starts are staggered, for a mix of classes. Alternatively, if you are all in your Solos David, you could always go car-rally style, setting off 30 seconds or a minute apart, then note your finish order and time yourselves at the final mark ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 1:36pm
I think on numbers a fair cop (especially if it was before Monday). But not the line start. ‘Let us reckon the vain tittle-tattle of old men (social media afficianados) at naught’. |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 3:10pm
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What troubles me about some of the comments on here and FB is the seeming lack of willingness to apply common sense to the guidelines. Feels like people are more comfortable with "rules" than avoiding spreading the virus. I mean, why are people arguing that six people is the maximum on a start - is there any evidence that this would affect the spread of COVID? Of course not! Now do not get me wrong - there are plonkers jumping off durdle door for whom common sense has also missed out but the vast majority of us utilise common sense to our daily lives quite successfully and it just feels that a vocal few who are more comfortable with a rules-based-society are shouting louder than the common-sense-majority. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 3:55pm
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Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 4:12pm
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I've found this an interesting read. https://ukpolicelawblog.com/index.php/coronavirus/261-one-kingdom-but-four-nations-emerging-from-lockdown-at-four-different-rates-under-four-different-laws" rel="nofollow - https://ukpolicelawblog.com/index.php/coronavirus/261-one-kingdom-but-four-nations-emerging-from-lockdown-at-four-different-rates-under-four-different-laws Referring to gatherings there is a definition in the regulations. (3) For the purposes of this regulation— (a)there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other; The blog discusses the example of 'shared or common purpose' when considering whether an activity is 'with each other'. People queuing for a bathroom are gathered for a common purpose, but not a shared purpose. They're there to go for a waz, but they're not wazing with each other. I guess this is relevant to sailors on the water. They are their for a common purpose, but not a shared purpose. I am sailing with my crew (shared purpose). Other people are just there also sailing (common purpose). How does this relate to racing? Well, I would say I have a common purpose with other boats (to sail around a course as fast as possible). But, the specific purpose of sailing my boat around the course is shared only with my crew. |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 4:18pm
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Any sailors/clubs using line starts etc will automatically be accused of carrying out 'organised' events
There may be no significant risk etc but that's not the point If a number of sailors arrange something between themselves on the water that's another thing entirely For now we just need to be grateful to be back on the water and create as little in the way of 'waves' as possible A bit of informal practice (rabbit races etc as sensible) with a few others surely is fine for now ? (and may still be pushing the current guidelines ?) Lots of sailors would snap your hands off for this (many clubs still not sailing) Rushing things now and creating embarrassing headlines is not a good idea And yes- some people will wave the 'rule' book and say we shouldn't do this or that but that's their opinion and they don't have to sail. In reality we are far more likely to have an accident driving/cycling to the club/work etc than we are likely to catch/spread CV or have an incident when sensibly sailing Typical UK - follow every 'rule' to the letter without actually analysing it Perhaps just debating this on a public forum is also not a great idea ? (especially if some posters are actively discouraging certain activities ?) |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 4:19pm
I am going to sit on the fence with regards to Common Sense vs Rules. However, with respect to Shared vs Common, I think your interpretion is flawed. You have a Shared Purpose with respect to racing as you are racing against EACH OTHER - the Shared purpose being to beat each other - however that format actually happens. A common Purpose would be - just to go Sailing It is semantics anyway, so not taking a side on it.
------------- |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 4:23pm
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But, more than anything I agree with what H2 says above. Those on the FB groups calling out more than 6 boats as illegal gatherings just strikes me a missing the point. We're trying to limit the spread of the virus, whilst sustaining some for of quality of life, physical and mental health and normality. Exposure isn't just about distance. Seven people in a location by coincidence isn't safer than six who messaged about it first on whatsapp. A fleeting moment of two laser sailors being within 2m isn't more risky than an evening sat 3m from an elderly relative. There is a danger that we become too hung up on absolutes rather than applying pragmatism and common sense. |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 4:31pm
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I dunno why people cant just enjoy the buzz of leisure sailing and being on the water. Why this drive to go racing so quickly? It will come in time. I know my view is not so popular on here, as most here are dedicated racers, and hence why they are on this forum - but somewhere along the way, and a part reason why sailing is declining (amongst many other factors) is that "sailing" has now become defined as "racing". We forget that to get to racing, you need to go sailing first, enjoy it, - and thats why you took up the sport in the first place. Just chill, sail, enjoy. We are very lucky people even to be able to do this ... ------------- |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 5:14pm
WOW, heard it all now, disagreeing with certain people on here is akin to jumping off Durdle door, plus it shouldn't be discussed on a public forum, because people disagree, WOW again, you need to think, you are not trying to reduce your tax bill  this a disease. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:16pm
Goodness me people, 'kin chill out.   ------------- |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:18pm
I do not disagree with you, but no one has ever tried to stop you just going for a pootle when you want. If you like drfiting around then fill ya boots.....but why are you interested in stopping the rest of us go racing? Whats your motivation for that? We let you do your thing... ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:19pm
If you can tell me how racing with seven people is going to increase the spread of C19 I will agree with you. If its just that you are wired to love rules more than common sense then please stop "twitching yer curtains" and chill out. Ta ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:20pm
Oh FFS. I am not stopping anyone doing anything. Get your head out of your arse. I am trying to put perspective on things. Chill out man. ------------- |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:48pm
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Chris - coming to a forum aimed at racers and blathering on about the joys of pottering and lecturing people on why they are wrong is pretty annoying, especially when the thing you are advocating for us to do will have zero effect on stopping the spread of C19. I know you mention you are a Boomer in your signature, but sir, you are setting a new standard in Bommer. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:52pm
I am not lecturing, nor blathering, nor advocating, nor trying to be offensive - unlike others. I was trying to be the voice of just the f**k chill out. If you and others choose to interpret it negatively, then thats your problem not mine. ------------- |
Posted By: Chris_H
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 6:54pm
Is it? Where does it say that? ------------- |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 7:09pm
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Hey, there's twenty of us, shhh you plank, somebody might hear, OK everyone synch your watches, five minutes and Go, Ffs though 'don't shout GO', no one will notice us all lined up, giggling like naughty school boys ------------- Robert |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 7:35pm
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H2
This whole forum was well frequented by racers once - sadly not so much now The glass half empty lot are really not adding anything to this debate - if they don't want to sail or don't agree with it they can just sit inside and snipe at those that are A lot of people have put in a huge effort to get some of us back on the water and, with time, sailing more competitively again Its of course far easier to sit back, criticise and presumably not go sailing ? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 8:33pm
| What a disappointingly aggressive turn of events. If you really can’t see that the more people congregate in an area the more risk there is, you are deluded. Maybe the risk is still acceptable, who knows, but it is higher. |
Posted By: Windermere
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 8:59pm
| We are thinking about starting racing at our club - but only for those that need to check their eyesight. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 9:08pm
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The RYA tell me that govt advise is still:
Stay at home as much as possible Work from home if you can Limit contact with other people Keep your distance if you go out (stay 2 metres (6ft) apart where possible) Wash your hands regularly Organised racing seems to push these more than free sailing. If racing it is harder (or less fair) to limit numbers, boats are likely to launch and recover at the same time, boats will be pushed harder (hence more likely for something to go wrong) and there will be more to discuss afterwards. I know generally the risks are pretty low for any individual and with care they are lower still, but the impression some give is that they believe the whole thing is over and racing can pretty much resume as before. In my three free sails so far someone has moved (touched) my trolley, held the end of my boom to stop it hitting them and several people have chatted at closer distance than I was comfortable with. These obviously happens more with more people around and a common event to focus on. One of my clients is a large manufacturer with 10,000 or so staff. Last year they banned the use of Stanley knives because of too many injuries. As you would expect this was ridiculed because most of them had never hurt themselves. As an individual, if you injure yourself every 10,000 days you can expect to go an entire career with perhaps one minor cut. But as a company on average there is an accident every single day - despite training, despite PPE and despite notices. There was so much time list to first aid and form filling it made sense, from their perspective, to ban the use. It is similar with racing. The risk to the individual is low, but collectively it may be too much. Or it may not, but the decision can’t be made on the risk to an individual. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 9:08pm
Welcome Windermere, trying to work out your post? Gone over my head  ------------- Robert |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 9:17pm
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I am a racer, never miss an opportunity to race. However I have no intention of getting angry or abusive as seems to be happening here and elsewhere in order to push to go racing. I can wait. My earlier post highlights the fuzzy line of what is considered to be acceptable and unacceptable, and the difficulty of trying to interpret “guidelines” rather than rules ... and frankly not brilliant or specific guidance from our national authority. On Sunday I sailed my Solo and a buddy in another and had a fantastic sail around the creeks for a couple of hours, with lots of planing reaches, came ashore just as satisfied as if I had been fleet racing. I have huge sympathy for any corporate body, whether they are sailing clubs or the RNLI, who have to work through an unprecedented amount of paperwork to safeguard their members and employees under the scrutiny of social media. ------------- Happily living in the past |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 9:54pm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 10:04pm
| Please don’t tell me what you think I think. I’m not saying racing is unsafe, I am saying it is clearly less safe. If the govt say that groups of 6 is where they currently draw the line before they consider the risks too high, then I think you should respect that and not try to argue that it shouldn’t apply to your situation. If you have 50 boats on the startline at 11am you had 50 pairs of hands on the gate padlock if nothing else. Do you seriously believe every single person sanitises or wears gloves every single time before and after they do that? |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 10:10pm
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 10:15pm
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Zeon: Also let’s look at risk using these 10 000 staff you mentioned. The risk those people are taking in spreading the virus byjust by going to work in offices and factories is many times greater than the risk factor of all dinghy sailors sailing at one time even with out social distancing rules being put in place. That’s with out even thinking about adding the risk supermarket shopping.
A. That is why those that can work from home should do so. B. The risks are additive. Two wrongs don’t make a right, so careless practise at work doesn’t excuse careless practise at your club. In fact it makes it worse. Let’s not forget there are still over 1000 people a day catching it. Most of them probably thought they were taking suitable precautions or were at low risk.
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Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 10:32pm
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Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 03 Jun 20 at 10:52pm
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I think the amount of boats should be limited by what the site can handle with regard to the 2m advice and the Covid Secure guidance. Whether the people on site are there to race or not makes little difference to covid risk as long as social distancing is managed. We did informal racing with 7 or 8 boats a week ago, and 3/4 this weekend. It hadn't occurred to me that boats on the water at the same time would be a 'gathering'. What degree of organisation has to be present to make it a gathering? For example, 1) 7 sailors turn up to a public slip, by pure coincidence, and sail on the same piece of water. None have met before. 2) A club posts opening times and then 7 sailors turn up when it opens and sail at the same time 3) A club is open, then 7 sailors turn up. They didn't know who would be there before arriving, but once there agree to watch out for each other and sail in the same part of the harbour for safety 4) 7 sailors message to say they will be sailing on Sunday and what time, to look out for each other. 5) A club assess it's site can cope with 7 sailors at any one time, so do a rota so people can pre-book. 7 sailors are at the club together. 6) 7 sailors message before hand with a course and a rough time. They compare 'time trial' time around the course after 7) 7 sailors message before with a course and rough time and run rabbit starts All scenarios have the same number of sailors using the same space at the same time. Are all illegal? Are all legal? Where is the risk difference between any scenario? Where is legal boundary of gathering passed, if at all? Anyway, it will probably all change before we get a handle on it.
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Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 6:26am
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I can't see a problem if one hundred boats are on the water, class water has a public park, issue comes when people look for loop holes to allow racing. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: zeon
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 6:52am
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Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 7:58am
Think you will find it is a reference to the recently reported actions of Dominic Cummings.... |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 8:32am
The advice is that people need to stay 2m apart. More people on a start line will not affect this. We had many more than six boats show up last weekend all of whom decided to sail the same course at the same time and none of us got closer than 2m to each other. ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 9:22am
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The risk is fleeting, but I can think of many times during a race that 2 sailors will be less than 2m from each other. Helms and crews of different boats up wind and at marks, a boat running past boats coming up wind, boats rafting up in light winds and tide when failing to round a mark.
But the risks are tiny compared to the contact I'm already seeing onshore as people rig, launch and chat. Set a start time and you'll see that multiply massively as people all want to be launching at once. Why not see how the current level of activity affects things before pushing for more? Use the time to self coach, run small group sessions where it is easy to know who you come into contact with and not to stretch the facilities? You never know, you might just be a faster sailor when racing proper starts again. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 10:14am
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We can launch 10 boats simultaneously at our club and be more than 2m apart. I accept that our club is unusual in this regard. We could launch 30 boats within a five minute window and not affect the need to distance. The risk of being closer than 2m on the water is WAY less than the risk I face facing people when I go running and regularly now have few options but to be well within 2m as I pass. As for social distancing whilst getting ready and after sailing, well I have not seen any issue here at our club - perhaps we are just a very anti-social bunch? ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: didlydon
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 10:21am
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Here's my two pennorth.... not much to add to the stuff which I've read so far, but I like racing, but not at the mo thanks. We can't physically do it & maintain a healthy distance in the race box or safety boat - or changing room & keep things as "sterile" as we should. Our club have postponed all club activities till further notice. I'm now allowed on the water by the Govt which is great & I'll leisure sail with a pal or two when able. That'll do my mental & physical health good for now... Lets not rush too quickly back to how it was before & risk & second wave of this bugger! ------------- Vareo 365 |
Posted By: NicolaJayne
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 11:03am
ALARP in my current workplace we've tried to ban them despite all the above and only using the 'retractable blade' version but because there is a limited set of uses for them they are generally available from the PPE + consumable tools vending machines only takes one careless cut and you can ruin the packaging ona several thousand pound (at retail ) item - which then can only be sold on through disposal channels or as 'refurbished' and thuse a write up of up to a third on the pristine retail price... all becasue some ignorant basic grade / agency worker decided they wanted a 'proper' knife not a safety cutter |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 11:11am
Thinking about your club, yes, you have very few bottlenecks. Keep the buildings shut, accept self rescue and persuade the committee to do the risk assessments and then go race. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 12:52pm
Indeed - and as I am the VC responsible for sailing, I guess I can! ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 5:51pm
| Do clubs have policies for informing members if someone recently at the club displays symptoms? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 6:59pm
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Presumably you will have to tell 'Track and trace', you will be very popular, everyone you have met will have to self isolate for 3 weeks. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 7:32pm
14 days, not three weeks. And it's not everyone you met. It's people you've had 'close contact' with. Which, if you were social distancing properly should really be no-one at a sailing club. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nhs-test-and-trace-how-it-works" rel="nofollow - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/nhs-test-and-trace-how-it-works |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 7:51pm
I think we need identify these risks and mitigate them. It's quite easy to stagger launching if that is an issue at your club.
I do think it'll be a few more weeks before organised ISAF standard racing takes place, because a few things need to be thought through where that format does gather people. But, in the mean time, a bit of common sense around the risks and not absolutism around the 'rules' seem the pragmatic approach to add a little fun to our cruising. |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 8:30pm
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Finally found out what a close contact is, someone you have been close to 2 metres from for 15 minutes or more and face to face meetings of less than one metre, plus household members. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04 Jun 20 at 9:01pm
But if you they social distancing properly they probably wouldn’t have caught it in the first place.
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 7:42am
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There are so many negative posts on this topic
This horrendous virus may be with us for years. So simply sitting back and constantly coming up with the 'but what if....' negative comments achieves nothing. We can all do that and, if we want a world with no risk, we will stay in bed So many people are putting in so much effort to get us out sailing, back to work, shopping etc etc but its so easy to criticise and come up with reasons not to do anything. There is risk in all aspects of life - even sitting behind a keyboard and constantly pointing out the bleeding obvious. If one is so risk averse - stay at home, hope someone else sorts out everything for you one day, oh - and be careful filling the kettle for cocoa, using a toaster, walking up stairs etc - its a dangerous world Be positive or at least helpful ? |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 8:18am
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There is so much attempted censorship on here now, debating an issue is not being negative. Insults and overbearing posts are negative posts not posts that disagree with other posts, do you not think you have lost the debate when all you can reply with is non contributing negativity. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 8:49am
Tell that to the checkout clerks, the doctors, nurses, carers and teachers...
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Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 9:04am
Well said Be positive and look to help resolve things Lets look for solutions and not more problems |
Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 9:20am
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Do we need to apply a bit of Mr Bumble's "The law is an ass"? I'm not sure even Dickens foresaw the extent we have been overcome by the (American) rules-based approach, never mind contingency fee ambulance-chasers. The trouble with a rules-based approach is that the actual objective gets lost in the observance, or working around, of the words defining the rules/law. Surely a more sensible approach is to look at what are we trying to achieve and the best ways to achieve it. No practicable set of rules can cover every situation, location and circumstance. But some core principles and guidelines can give a framework that get to the right result without the shenanigans that lawyers (professional or bar-room variety) get up to. Back to the sailing, we have 5 gentle-gradient concrete launching slips and 8 jetties various of decent lengths and a good sized boat and car park. We have a cart-puller that can be used to move ribs and 2.4s about single-handed. We have a race-box computer system that can be operated by one person. How can a set of generic laws cover that, a shingle beach and committee boats, never mind golf? So I’m happy with applying personal responsibility, common sense and letting each club/location determine what works for them. What I am struggling with here is the inference that a difficult circumstance in one club provides a basis for preventing something at another, even though it is adherent to distancing and everything else. And I really struggle with the questioning of others’ judgements without a full understanding of their particular circumstances and also deriding others’ appraisal of risk. Oh, and compared to eejits jumping of Durdle-door, creating heath fires with barbecues and leaving disgusting detritus everywhere, it seems to me the law has far greater challenges than a few of us going racing in a demonstrably safe way. ------------- http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 9:50am
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I have jumped off loads of things over the years, leap of faith, elephant rock etc, hope to do Durdle door but will make sure the tide is in ------------- Robert |
Posted By: Ozzytub
Date Posted: 05 Jun 20 at 12:11pm
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Its all about risk assessment be it either the clubs and then most importantly the individual.
Happy to follow what the club committee has agreed. They give up their time to help run the club(been there, done that, not prepared to jump back in). If I think personally that the committee have taken things to far or not done correctly for my safety I can stay at home till I am happy. I follow the guide lines and I am quiet relaxed with the whole thing(probably due to my job daily contians a fair degree of risk anyhow) My wife on the other hand. At least we can go for some form of sailing you could be sheidling. Although sailing without racing is not a hobbie I would continue with. As soon as the club allows racing and I am happy with the risks I'll be there. |
Posted By: Pierre
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 10:18am
| Well about 25 out sailing this morning. All good. Common sense and obeying the rules. You're welcome. |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 5:54pm
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I'm not convinced racing more than 6 single handers is permitted under the "meet 6 people" rule. The 6 person meeting is still > 2m. I suspect it wont be policed. BUT if there was an outbreak and T&T actually got involved and there were say 18 racers named... someone might start to ask some questions. That said, the government has allowed the return of competative sport, some of which will be <2m.
A race box can run single person. You may need to add some automation (check out Android DSRC App) or if you need two people can one be in and one outside the box.
RYA has suggested single manning 2 RIBs instead of double manning 1. IF something bad happens both RIBs attend and if necessary helm of 1 anchors and transfers to the other. You will be within 2m, It will be an emergency. You will try to stay apart. You will keep the time to a minimum.
Is it necessary? We are brought up with such luxuries so we expect them. In the summer, turning up with swimming gear on under clothes seems easy enough to switch to a wetsuit. (Dry Suit - turn up in huggy bear - its pre-warmed). Changing at the end of the day possible under a towel or dry robe if you want to be posh
Restrict numbers. No gear to be kept in change (put it back in the car {mentioned the other day at a club meeting it was like a revelation!}) wipe down the bench with cleaning wipe before and after use. Certainly going to be an issue for capacity...
Couldn't agree more. I think we are unlikely to allow formal racing until July - and really looking for one or more of the following: - Relaxation of the 6 people rule - A formal ruling on amateur sport - Relaxation of the 2m distance We would like some better clarity on changing rooms and are vaguely hopeful that sort of thing will come with announcements on Gyms etc. Either this weekend's protests will have shown the virus is down and gone, or we have a second wave coming and we can forget July! Some of our current work is about being ready to race when the time comes. So getting our old automation in the race box cleaned off, tested and fully replaced with DSRC if needed.
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Posted By: Wiclif
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 5:59pm
| Having seen the protests over the last few days, is this topic not largely irrelevant? |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 07 Jun 20 at 6:11pm
Depends in which way! Either because if its OK for 10,000 people to squeeze into a small place to throw bikes at horses its presumably fine to have 2m distance sailing? Or because - wave 2 is not almost certainly just 2 weeks away, and so we will be in a full lockdown again? |
Posted By: fleaberto
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 12:06pm
Is it necessary? We are brought up with such luxuries so we expect them. In the summer, turning up with swimming gear on under clothes seems easy enough to switch to a wetsuit. (Dry Suit - turn up in huggy bear - its pre-warmed). Changing at the end of the day possible under a towel or dry robe if you want to be posh ...or even posher, like wot I am - purchase a changing tent Great for getting changed out of wet into dry gear when it's raining (like the weekend just gone).------------- Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays' |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 12:51pm
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Could be social distancing is going to be reduced to one metre. ------------- Robert |
Posted By: H2
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 2:24pm
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Folks, do we imagine that one of these days some Government Minister is going to stand at those snazzy lecturns and utter the sentence "from the 15th its fine for people to race in their dinghy's in groups of more than six so long as they use a 3-2-1 start sequence and agree to not sail by the lee so as to minimise port-starboard infections when on a run" or something as specific and totally unexpected? Or are we going to have to use our common sense if we want to go racing again? The plan is to enjoy help stop this virus, right? ------------- H2 #115 (sold) H2 145 OK 2082 |
Posted By: 423zero
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 2:35pm
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Probably not this year, I haven't even managed to sail yet, nothing from my club, park rangers dragging there feet.
------------- Robert |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Jun 20 at 4:37pm
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Been doing yardstick based flying laps at ours. They were most fun (and slower) when one happened to end up in the company of others. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |