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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 May 13 at 11:03am
Originally posted by transient

Is this good for Sailing......No



no, it's not you're right... assuming of course you idolise a sport which is dominated by home builds again.  Then we can all play totally egalitarian and work with the confines of the amateur building tolerances as they were intended when many class rules were written.  Of course those of us without the time or skills to build will probably have left you all to it, sailing around in rotting boats with more duct tape than resin- it's veritable timebomb on participation.

However when I'm shelling out £8 to £10k on a new singlehander, then yes, I expect it to perform better than an older one- within the accepted rate of change of any given class to ensure the racing is still 'fair'.

Does that make me a bandit buyer... erm no, but it does make me a mug if we follow your logic.  Without folks buying new, then the class will stagnate and die.  Vandercraft and Cirrus have both proved that with modest performance improvements, through things like reducing the weight, changing sail plans etc they have been able to very successfully inject new life into once ailing classes.  I would look at both the Blaze and the Phantom and say their existence is very good for sailing and I'm pleased those options could be open to me as a sailor.
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Telltale

 
Originally posted by pondmonkey

[QUOTE=RS400atC]

In fairness, even the 300 has (FINALLY!) got a carbon boom- personally I'd have liked to have seen a full on rig overhaul tested and voted on, that might have really given the class a new lease of life as the hull is possibly one of the nicest SMODs out there and I know a few sailors who would be tempted into the class, but find the rig a big dated.



Interested in that comment, I had an RS 300, carbon mast, gnav, ali boom then now going carbon, new sail looks great. So in what way do you consider it needs a rig overhaul?  Confused

the gnav is horrid for starters, it's also a bit doggy in the very light winds... which sadly dominate my dinghy sailing at this current point in life with kids and family commitments.

the new sail does 'look nice'- but don't forget it was de-tuned deliberately, because of the issues discussed here, to ensure it was still comparable to the 1995 designed rig.  That's what the class wanted... fine, I get that, but it's 2013, not 1995 and things have moved on a bit.
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JimC View Drop Down
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That of course is on of the interesting challenges with epoxy/high tech sandwich boats. In the old days polyester/monolithic glass boats deteriorated and thus got slower at a predictable rate, so a new boat was just a tad older than an old one, but depreciation was under control.

High quality modern boats last much longer, which is fine on one level, but what happens to the second hand market?
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 11:18am
Originally posted by JimC

Think we can live without the political BS transient.



LOL Not political.......I used the words in the same context as your use of the word conservative. 

Quoting you:

"and it always comes as a shock to the Poms when they find out that in some ways the Australian scene is far more conservative."

....an apology for accusing me of talking BS would be nice Jim bit I'll not hold my breath Wink
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 11:39am
Originally posted by JimC

High quality modern boats last much longer, which is fine on one level, but what happens to the second hand market?

well let's keep with the RS300 as a good example- it's a well made boat, always was.

So you can buy an older one that's been well looked after for £2.5k.  Assuming it's got good foils and a nice sail, it's as competitive as any new boat.  The same with the 600.  Both are economically comparable with a very nice Laser with a decent sail and a carbon tiller.

However unlike the Laser, benefitting from ubiquity and ISAF endoresement, new boat sales on both are slow.  This suggests neither class is set to grow and will ultimately decline.  This supported by the 'finger in the air' class health guide of the Y&Y Nationals table.  I guess when opens only attract 3 or 4 participants, the tipping point will be hit for all stakeholders, as it did with other 90's SMODS that now clutter up the boat parks in various states of disarray.



Now I know a few loyalists do buy the odd new 300 once in a blue moon, (not so sure the same is true of the 600, the MPS must be better proposition on all levels now).  But it's not going to be enough to top the pot up on the second hand market to replace the boats that do ultimately fall beyond economic repair.  The 300 and 600 are still supported by their manufacturer- which is great, they can be economically maintained whilst they are still sound, and some guys will love them, so they will 're-invest' rather than try something new- like a 100 or a D1.  We only need to look at the true value of a L4000/ISO/5000/Buzz etc that 'needs a bit on money spent' on it to see what happens when the manufacturer permanently consigns a design to the after market.  Really, you can't give them away....

It's difficult to predict the future lifespan of the 300 or 600.  They are currently supported by their more popular younger sisters down the sailing club disco- and if you've got champagne tastes but beer money, then they will at least offer you a bit of grope behind boat shed if you don't mind it being a bit old and tatty around the edges.  But as a stand alone business proposition, I can't see the 300 or 600 being viable- especially if the customers source parts and spares from the open market.

It'll be interesting to see.  I think it'll be a shame to see the 300 disappear (and the 600 too - it was my nemesis boat if ever there was one!)  But sadly the world moves on and new boat buyers aren't buying into them anymore... certainly not from a UK perspective, outside the existing class stalwarts.
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 11:55am
I've just re-done the graph including the asymmetric singlehanders and widened the PY banding up 50 points (negligible from a demographic/performance buyer perspective imho)

It's interesting that the classes which are showing the healthiest numbers are the Phant, Contender and Blaze- three classes I cited earlier today of demonstrating an acceptable rate of development.

Even the new entrant- the D-One, is rapidly rising through that 10-20 convergence point- although we all know not everyone competing owns their boat, so it's a bit iffy to read too much into it at this stage.   However It won't be long before that's up there above the 300.  It's already beating the 600.  

 


Edited by pondmonkey - 02 May 13 at 11:59am
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pondmonkey View Drop Down
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Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 12:06pm
and one final graph to peruse with your pret a manger overpriced sandwich...

looks like Chris249 is right... slow boats are clearly more popular!  





Edited by pondmonkey - 02 May 13 at 12:08pm
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transient View Drop Down
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Posts: 715 		Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by pondmonkey

However when I'm shelling out £8 to £10k on a new singlehander, then yes, I expect it to perform better than an older one


As would I. It's the same with any product....... Old and knackered Vs New.

Originally posted by pondmonkey


within the accepted rate of change of any given class to ensure the racing is still 'fair'.


....there's the stumbling block. We could argue, in fact the whole world argues constantly about what is "acceptable" and "fair". Big differences in hull weight are a no no as far as I'm concerned but each to their own.


The boats you mention that have undergone slow (or fast for that matter) incremental refinements have been a right pain in the arse to many who enjoy handicap racing. In the past the PY adjustments have been too slow to catch up. Meanwhile many have lapped it up while the rest sit and scratch their heads because Joe Blogs has just progressed from the back of the fleet to somewhere near the front in a matter of weeks because he bought a new Bleaktenduate or whatever.  As for the divide in class races that large hull weight variations create , I wouldn't touch that class with a bargepole......again each to their own. 

Maybe it would be better for all, including boat manufacturers and the sport in the long run, if some these older boats which you describe as moribund did slip through the cracks and die a dignified death........I'm not entirely agreeing with GRFs view on old boats but maybe there is an element of truth in his belief. .....but then again maybe the market just isn't big enough.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 May 13 at 12:12pm
But are new boat sales better for the Laser because of ISAF endorsement, or because the slow rate of built in obsolescence inherent in the construction means that there is a stronger motivation for replacing boats when they are still relatively new? Impossible to answer of course.
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Originally posted by Telltale

 
Originally posted by pondmonkey


[QUOTE=RS400atC]
In fairness, even the 300 has (FINALLY!) got a carbon boom- personally I'd have liked to have seen a full on rig overhaul tested and voted on, that might have really given the class a new lease of life as the hull is possibly one of the nicest SMODs out there and I know a few sailors who would be tempted into the class, but find the rig a big dated.

Interested in that comment, I had an RS 300, carbon mast, gnav, ali boom then now going carbon, new sail looks great. So in what way do you consider it needs a rig overhaul?  Confused


The bendy mast that bends in the wrong places...
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