Bloody Mary 2010

2 good photos - not sure a lot can be read into them, I'm sure both boats are capable of both taking off and nosediving, given the right incentive.

Originally posted by sargesail Although the 300 has a reputation for nose dives which many outside the class see as being due to the lack of bouyancy from that elegane nose, most nose dives are actually induced by the bend in the mast.

I find both of those fairly hard to believe. IME fine bows get you out of trouble with nose diving just as often as they get you in, and bearing in mind how far the centre of effort is above the centre of resistance I can't really imagine that 10 degrees of mast bend one way of the other makes a whole load of difference.
My PlusPlus, featuring a stayed mast would go down the mine just fine thank you very much...

For whatever my opinon is worth I reckon that nosediving is a *very* complicated phenomenum, and I really can't list simple factors that cause it. Lets do some brain dumping...

Gusts have got to be a factor: when a gust hits the power from the rig increases and so does the power from the rig all those feet above the centre of resistance, so the bow goes down one of retrimming the boat, gust ending or pitchpoling. So how much the centre of effort changes as the bow goes down has to be a factor - a long boat will be better than a short one simply because the crew weight will act further behind the centre of bouyancy as the boat pitches forward... The rig accelerating faster than the hull..

Deceleration is a big issue - maybe the prime cause really now I think about it, so fast boats are more prone than slow ones, simply because slow boats can't decelerate so much as fast ones. I guess what causes a terminal pitchpole is when you can't get the bow back up before the rig is over the bow.

Obviously waves can cause problems: if you can't navigate a patch up the back of a wave and slam straight into it you decelerate...

Fine bows may go down more easily, but they also create a lot less drag and deceleration when they do so are more likely to come up again, whereas if a fat bow goes down you're in trouble. That, I believe, is why ultra low volume wave piercing bows are now popular in the serious catamarans...

I wonder if flexy masts may help stop nosediving - if when the gust hits the mast bends over the bow and sideways and dumps half the extra power then there is less pitch down force compared to a rigid rig that just whams in the extra power before you can get your backside to the back corner of the boat...

This is all pretty much stream of consciousness... Without doing some serious testing in matching hulls with different rigs and matching rigs with different hulls its kinda difficult to be sure, and a lot of the above might be nonsense...

Originally posted by sargesail The inversion is interesting: my view (as a 300er of a few years experience) is that the kite pulling up or down is an irrelevance, it is the forward bend (inversion) on the mast that will push the nose in. Although the 300 has a reputation for nose dives which many outside the class see as being due to the lack of bouyancy from that elegane nose, most nose dives are actually induced by the bend in the mast.  The same sideways bend which allows gust response upwind turns into fore and aft bend on bearing away, and pushes the nose in.  It can  happen in flat water. Clearly the D-One is rigged differently but there is enough in those photos for me to think it has a mast bend induced nose-in problem.  I don't see the same in the RS100.

OMG do I really wanna post again....no not really....but I think I should.

Um the Mast inversion thing is something that has interested me since I got the D-One....hell there are are enough critics out there pointing the finger.

So I have been sailing it since last October and its fair to say that I / we have been sailing it incorrectly in a breeze which I believe TT is referring to in his post with the comparisons to his sailing the 100 and the Bloody Mary picture.

I know about the Bloody Mary picture, I was there and I was just in front of the boat in the picture when the gust hit.

Funnily enough I have just reached my conclusion on this subject on Sunday just gone and have posted my findings on the subject on my blog

http://d-onedinghy.blogspot.com/

There is no doubt about it at the Bloody Mary, we were sailing it incorrectly, coupled with the fact that it was blowing dogs off chains as well as everything being literally frozen solid (when I went to hoist my spinny there was a block of ice on the cleat)

I did not know then what I know now and that is in 20 knots upwards while bearing away the procedure must be to centre the traveller and keep the kicker on....how many boats do that??? not the ones I have been sailing up until the D-One!

Fact is instinct says let kicker off and mainsheet off, bear off downwind and hoist the kite....this is not the way to do it D-One style.

I have proved on Sunday after deliberately practicing this technique that the correct way is to keep kicker on tight, center the traveller before bearing off  (not too deep, no need) and then the D-One immediately planes off onto a reach, the righting moment of the wings is enough to hoist the kite while hiking and then the kite takes you downwind, minus the nosedive situation!

There is no doubt in my mind that this is the solution to the problem that people keep pointing out.

In the lighter winds its fine to bear off more, its your call.

I was wiped out in that gust at the BM because I let the traveller off and the mainsheet as an instict to every boat I have ever sailed....I had given maximum sail area to the wind and I got punished for it....I did not break my mast, although I did capsize and with a hole in my whooly bear that was enough for me!

So compairing an 8.4 plus 12sm rig to an 11sm with 15sm rig with a serious wind difference is in need of explanation and to coin TT's phrase probably "a cheap shot" although there is no need to go down that route

The thing about all this is...it doesn't really matter what is said on these forums, what people should really do is sail both of them in a broad wind spectrum and see if the boat fits your requirements.

I find it very interesting to read about how bigger people are gravitating to the 8.4 100 rig instead of the 10.2, that I cannot quite understand....perhaps its the wing thing, but the further you get away from 11sm the further away from being able to compare the 2 boats you get, surely??? One is going to be faster, and they are completly different boats so lets just stop trying to compare them.

That all said....I need to say hi to GRF...I was going to say...."I'm here!" in answer to his where is Tim (nice butt...) and I am glad Turn Turtle is having as much fun in his new 100 as I had in my D-One when I got it.

Although when I tried to be enthusiastic it was met with slightly less happiness.

Nevermind....I will be at the Dinghy show on Sat....perhaps we could meet.

Is there room in the telephone box?

Cheers

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Originally posted by turnturtle Thanks for the response Craiggo, unfortunately I fear it will fall on deaf ears, Luca seems to think I've got some grand plan of attack on his little baby. Shame, I thought I'd settled that one with him off the air so to speak, bloody hell I thought the invite to race a D-One charter boat FOC in Scarlino was a proof enough that he finally understood there was no ill intent. It was a genuine surprise and generously received- it's a shame time pressures meant that I couldn't take him up on the offer- what an honour that would have been, muppet central from the emerging RS100 fleet gets to race in the homeland of the D-One, that'd been cool and certainly worth a post or two... but it appears he still harbours these misconceptions of any ill intention, but hey 'it makes him laugh' so no worries. Odd that he's still got got his PR guy writing silly things in the March Roll Tacks about the crap from last year that I long thought was water under the bridge. Rodney rightly started up a fresh thread for the class, good move, why dredge up the old crap? Different thread... I know. Luca's also well off base on his assessment of this forum be RS100-centric too. There's plenty of news about other classes- the RPX coverage is growing, a sh*t load more to follow next week- rightly so if they can deliver the base line of the development. I'm also seeing great steps forward for the 59er- completely owner led dialogue- fantastic forum material, not without critique, banter and positive intervention from those with physical experience of the class. The ALTO's challenging the basis for SMOD evolution, whilst also keeping a fresh banter on the 5o5- legend machine, it'll never drop off the radar imo, let's hope the Alto cane live up to its forerunner. And to top it all off, Mike's being quietly reserved about the Ikon, but it's looking smart and certainly getting some good feedback.... forum discussion could go ballastic post Dinghy Exhibition and I doubt the RS100 will feature that highly with only a couple of grainy photos from yours truly.     Yes the RS100 is getting plenty of coverage, not all by me either, but its fair to say that I felt a certain duty to keep some fresh pictures coming when I was fortunate enough to land one of the first boats out of Thailand. Pressure- sure, but not from RS, I doubt they give a sh*t with the sales pipeline they've got. But from fellow 100 sailors who are patiently waiting for their machines, who like me a couple of weeks ago, are eager as hell to get as much info as they can on this fantastic new class.... it's called comradery, I'm sure the D-One have it in their fleet too. Rodney just needs to chill a bit, not everything is a petty criticism, even urinating girls was a bit of off-topic banter not some hidden meaning criticism- he got it, I have the PM to prove it. So for the record Rodney & Luca, I'm not out to do your boat down, quite the contrary, which brings me on to my response to Tim.... Chap- thanks for posting, much appreciated; although you're wrong about any intention for a cheap shot. I'll come clean, I had read your blog and found it very interesting about keeping the kicker on. I found the reverse on the 100, I needed to let some off to get the main to really draw, and it made the gybes smoother too. I was also interested if this recent discovery from you would answer some of the 'question' over the pros and cons of your stayless rig... please see my reply on the 18th Jan on this thread 2 pages ago... "I guess the trick is to keep the mainsheet on", well it appears not... the kicker is the answer or at least part of the solution. As I've said before there's lots we learn from each boat. If we can assess the differences and similarities without this constant 'emotional baggage' then we can all progress and get more out of these boats. Sorry if Rodney took my post of both pictures as somehow 'offensive', any chance we can chill out now... I have said on numerous occasions the new deck looks great, I would buy one if the RS100 wasn't around and I'd buy one now if I had more time to sail... (actually I wouldn't, if I had more time for sailing dinghies then I'd stick with a musto skiff) However I fail to see why we cannot openly evaluate both, and assess what makes these boats tick to see if we can all improve just a little bit from behind our desks, it's no substitute to time on the water, but please, surely it's better than nothing?

Hi James,

No deaf ears here

Accepted no "cheap shot",/ "emotional baggage" so, moving forward....

Interestingly enough in addition to my explanation, once on my way downwind with the kite up, I found it possible to then trim the kicker and mainsheet accordingly to get the best comfortable balance and speed.....wooo dare I mention the VMG thing....blimey that is complicated.

At the Tiger Trophy at Rutland there were times when I had to let the kicker off a bit to spill wind so I could lay the mark, rather than drop the kite, and as soon as the gust dropped a bit it was kicker back on....there is so much I can do to control the thing, that's whats so interesting about it.

There is defineately loads to learn about both these boats, and they seem to have a large audience.

We will certainly have a lot of fun in the process.

See you on Sat

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I am not talking about bearing off dead downwind to hoist the kite like we do on the RS400, I am saying bear off onto a reach, having centered the mainsheet on the track, hoist the kite which then takes you deep downwind and then I can play the kicker for power on an off.

No doubt about it if I wanted to go deep downwind then the kicker would need to be right off.

There maybe an arguement for "should I have to be doing it like that?" but I feel that it is just about getting used to the boat and what to do with all the sail area for the wind conditions.

Like I have said before in the lighter stuff, it's power on all the way thanks!

Preconceptions are the main thing that has kept me from finding the right way of doing it....comes from sailing the RS400 for sooo long, hard habit to break.

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