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Is Racing Allowed?
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Mozzy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Paramedic

To add to the above, whats more frustrating is that there are so many other ways they could have done it. Start in flights, time trials, etc. etc.
But none of those alternatives make any difference in terms of being 'with' other people. And in practice they make no difference on proximity. They certainly make no difference to what is 'seen' by the public either. 

I think the race format is a red herring. Either by two boats being in a race they a 'with' one another, 'together' and 'undertaking an activity with each other' or they aren't. 
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My interpretation is - it was an organised event, for more than 6 people with a crass and insensitive moniker - and doing it in full view of an immediate neighbour who is not your best friend. . In just a few weeks time, had they had patience, this may well be ok when further restrictions are lifted. As it stands now, HISC are under the spotlight, and not in a positive way. 

You can argue all you like on how to interpret the rules to justify this event - this is the end result of doing just that...


Edited by Chris_H - 16 Jun 20 at 7:30am
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Posts: 209 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Mozzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:35am
Originally posted by polc1410

 
This is what the law actually says

"no person may participate in a gathering which takes place in a public or private place -
(a) outdoors, and consists of more than six persons"

(there are bits that address if same family, same bubble etc. But for most situations this is the bit that matters.)

Gathering is defined as: here is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other;
(my bold)

There is nothing ambiguous here.  

Define; 'together', 'same place', 'activity' and 'with'. They are all fairly ambiguous terms (consider the law may have defined a duration and proximity).

Affiliation to the same club is a form of togetherness?
Same place may be the harbour or lake?
Activity might be sailing?
'With' is difficult to describe. 

I think it's disingenuous to make a case that by there being a race you are suddenly 'with' people in other boats. When the reality is you're already part of the same club, launching from the same ramp and using the same facilities when leisure sailing. 

The law doesn't state what level of organisation needs to be in place for a gathering to be a gathering. So for me those happy leisure sailing 'with' X number of boats together at a club should be happy racing 'with' X number of boats at the same club. 

To me it's clear. I am with my crew. I am in the same place as my crew (the boat). We have shared purpose that cannot be separated and are 'with' each other. We are spending extended time in each others company. I see there is a clear increase risk in transmission by being gathered with my crew and it seems logical this is a gathering. So we must either be of the same household
or stay 2m apart. 
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Posts: 349 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon Lovesey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 7:54am
Originally posted by Paramedic


Originally posted by A2Z

To be honest he, the fisherman, seems a complete plonker. I’m all for a return to racing but it has to be seen to be in a responsible and sensitive way and not looking for loopholes or “everyone’s at it” justification.  I know Ian Walker has said the RYA can’t give a one size fits all guide, but it does seem to me they could be a bit clearer on whether club racing is a gathering or not.  

Yes, agreed on all counts.
With RYA backing the club would at least have something to fall back on. As it stands they have no moral grounding at all other than their own interpretation of the rules.


Agree, pity RYA have not publicly supported HISC here. The club have put a robust plan in place with the appropriate risk assessments. This is all down to interpretation of the guidelines, many clubs are finding this C19 situation a big challenge and need clarity.
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By The Lee View Drop Down
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Posts: 114 		Post Options Post Options   Quote By The Lee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 9:40am
Personally I don't believe exploiting loopholes etc to justify organised racing is really justifiable. Like get a grip I have raced every weekend for the last however many years however no I have not shrivled up and died from the absense of racing! I am regularly sailing in a group of less than 6 and am using a bit of PATIENCE to wait to the month or two until organised events are expicitly allowed. Shock horror the world doesn't revolve around dinghy racing even if we sometimes wish it did.

Edited by By The Lee - 16 Jun 20 at 9:40am
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 12:01pm
They think they are doing their Tax returns, whatever, they will never meet you in the middle, everything is black and white, you are either with them or against them, WOW, few platitudes there
re, Dominic Cummings, I personally don't hold any thing against him, when you are ill and your wife could also fall ill, you need your family round you, another platitude, this from the 'Bard' himself, "there's no place like home".
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 1:06pm
I'm trying to workout this morning how people queuing for 24 hours outside Primark (FFS) in the proximity of the same stranger for hours on end is not a 'gathering', but a load of boats tens or more of metres (apart from a couple of minutes for a start, but even then 2m apart) across an an hour or so is a gathering. Extending the same logic, only 6 family groups are permitted to go for a walk around the Devil's Punchbowl or whatever, even though there's acres of it. Just as there is Chi Harbour. The cynic in me says difference is that the shoppers generate some employment and business revenue. And of course, if HISC members were rallying to protest against something woke, they'd get plaudits not brickbats. I refer to my previous post about the stupidity of hard and fast rules and sense of a principles based approach. This is not, thankfully, the USA, a country dominated by lawyers although some would like it to be, it seems. Be careful what you wish for.
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Posts: 360 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sussex Lad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 1:41pm
I'm amazed.......sailors arguing about rule interpretation, who'd have thought. Wink

It's another division, cracks appearing everywhere and all products of fear and anger. Hopefully, one day we will be able to focus on what we have in common again.
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Posts: 3400 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by Sussex Lad

I'm amazed.......sailors arguing about rule interpretation, who'd have thought. Wink

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
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Posts: 316 		Post Options Post Options   Quote zeon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Jun 20 at 3:38pm
........

Edited by zeon - 01 Oct 20 at 12:50pm
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