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iGRF View Drop Down
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Dinghy Show 2017
    Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 3:16pm
Originally posted by RS400atC



[QUOTE=iGRF].......Is it over canvassed?


That's obviously a question of when, but in my search for ultimate truth, it gets back to what we used to call the Force Four barrier in the Original windsurfing days, something that got eliminated with other tricks, but illustrates the point at which sailing becomes increasingly shall we say 'interesting' for anyone beyond that weight over ten = sail size in sq mtrs. and every gust over force four increases the power by 50% to double. So if you weigh less than 120 kilos and are not totally proficient getting on that wire and out on those racks, you are going to have problems with a 12.2 sq mtr sail as the wind moves above Force 4.

In my case I have problems particularly more so with fixed rigs, if I use a sail bigger than 7.5 in that scenario and since my boat of joy sports an 8.5 I'm sh*t out of luck at anything above 15 knots, but I figure a Trapeze would, like a windsurfer give me just a little more high end as it does with an 8.5 on a board.

So that Fire rig, or the Farr rig and a wire do seem a bit of a better option for use on the sea.
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turnturtle View Drop Down
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

 

In my view, a boat with significant flaws but a useful benchmark of 'progress' since last century?

indeed- nothing quite as 'pure' as one upwind though is there?  I wonder if a softer sail, maybe a more kicked-up (carbon) boom and some chines would do wonders for it personally?  I always thought it was tragedy when the stock of quality 2nd hand boats got cannibalised on to the foiler for fatties band waggon..... but I guess if you were busy doing your damnedest to market the RS700 against the arguably better all-round MPS, your focus wouldn't be on what was happening with your legacy products either.  
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 3:00pm
Originally posted by iGRF

...... Your RS600 is currently shown faster than perhaps it should be given it's specs, I'd have it at 933. at the required crew weight (120kgs) it's tricky because of the racks and the leverage, put a normal weight crew say 90kgs into the mix and you get 901, but doubtful they could handle 12.2 mtrs once it got 'interesting', the boat is over canvassed.

In my experience the 600 can sail to 920, at least in that window of 6 months between getting competent on it and cashing it in for an MPS. Many (inc me) don't fully get competent before being drawn back to something easier.
Depends somewhat on the course, it suffers on a dead run, but is a weapon on the reaches of a 'random harbour tour'. There are of course few things to sensibly benchmark the 600 against. The list of kiteless boats you'll find on the same leg of the course being sparse.
Whether it's fairly 900 or 930 is academic when nearly all the alternatives are lumbering around in the 'medium' fleet with 4 digit PYs.
Is it over canvassed?
Surely if so, it would pay to use the reefing facility a lot more?
Don't forget it has a wide rack option for the undernourished.

In my view, a boat with significant flaws but a useful benchmark of 'progress' since last century?


Edited by RS400atC - 22 Feb 17 at 3:01pm
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:40pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Be warned, it doesn't always work out, ditching your sport mates for the new parents of daughters friends, that can get bloody as time goes on trust me.. Big upheavals when they all go to different big schools or if you have daughters then one of them gets a boy in the mix, parents of boys don't mix with parents of girls, not for long..

yes, but by the time this all passes, life progresses to a different stage....  and it's not long before you're back at the dinghy show, brimming with enthusiasm for weighing up the merits of a navy blue Supernova vs something more muted, or God forbid, a Solo....  made of wood, safe in the knowledge that you've saved them at least the cost of the coffin for that 'Valhalla Send Off' your solicitor will spare them the knowledge of.  


Edited by turnturtle - 22 Feb 17 at 2:55pm
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:31pm
Be warned, it doesn't always work out, ditching your sport mates for the new parents of daughters friends, that can get bloody as time goes on trust me.. Big upheavals when they all go to different big schools or if you have daughters then one of them gets a boy in the mix, parents of boys don't mix with parents of girls, not for long..
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Posts: 590 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Cirrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:31pm
Not on a boat that weighs 72 kgs I agree even sailing off 1070 (What my spreadsheet suggests it should be), Now if the hull weighed 50 kgs had a trapeze and sailed off 1033 as a result, well that would be interesting.

Phew - said you would not like it !  (But for information only now the hull complete but ex wing system and corrector weights does weigh ... wait for it, wait for it  just about 51kg).  If you want a trapeze just get on with it buy a Farr 3.9 - there is nothing else 'standard' that might do for real 'light-weights' who want to dangle around on a bit of spare rigging for the amusement of others... great upwind but those reaches might be interesting in proper waves in a short hull (presumably this will all be done for laughs)... and you don't want to 'customise' (ie most likely RUIN !)  a perfectly good standard class boat. 

Slightly more seriously your spreadsheet is not far out as to a likely PN for 'Fire' (This is NOT an endorsement of your calcs btw - it might just spit this one out coincidentally) ... RYA don't seem to have any numbers (yet) and GL handicappers are provisionally applying a (slightly punitive) trial number of  '1050' - most clubs that are prepared to use their own brains seem to centre around a local figure of  '1065'ish  - so Supernova / Aero 7 country.
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Posts: 2538 		Post Options Post Options   Quote turnturtle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:26pm
Originally posted by Daniel Holman

 lubricated by overpriced lager (at least it's getting colder) with ones mates that one only sees on an annual basis. That is the unique value proposition for me always has been.

Ah, yes but the novelty wears off eventually.  A bit like travelling to open meetings for quality racing in a dinghy you actually have a sense of pride and achievement in owning....  it all seems rather a selfish pursuit against the backdrop of modern family life in a post-Pankhurst era of grown men attending Play Dates, Pottery classes and Build a Bear parties.   

It's time to get new mates Dan....  'Other Dads met at the PTA quiz' are a good stock to retain a self-styled sense of superiority and smugness.  It might be the social equivalent of punting a 14xxxxx number Laser around the back of the fleet at the local duck pond, but there can be a few gems in there worth buying a round for if you 'open up' enough...  Just brush up on all this Rugby bullsh*t that seems to occupy their obsessions right now.  After all it's not 'road bike weather' unless you've changed your tyres... the rest, well it should be easy for a guy with your vocabulary and sharp wit.       
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by RS400atC


Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Cirrus

Blaze Fire = 8.8m sail areaBut please 'No' GRF - we are certainly not recommending it for you - it really would not be your cup of tea !


Not on a boat that weighs 72 kgs I agree even sailing off 1070 (What my spreadsheet suggests it should be), Now if the hull weighed 50 kgs had a trapeze and sailed off 1033 as a result, well that would be interesting.
Why wouldn't such a beast rate about 920 or whatever a 600 rates this week?


That's because that particular Frankenboat was based on a Blaze, if it were based on a Contender with a hull weight no different to current just an 8.8 sail then it should sail off 1002 if they dropped the hull weight to say 50 kgs, then it would sail off somewhere around 966. Your RS600 is currently shown faster than perhaps it should be given it's specs, I'd have it at 933. at the required crew weight (120kgs) it's tricky because of the racks and the leverage, put a normal weight crew say 90kgs into the mix and you get 901, but doubtful they could handle 12.2 mtrs once it got 'interesting', the boat is over canvassed.

Edited by iGRF - 22 Feb 17 at 2:26pm
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Posts: 997 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Daniel Holman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 1:40pm
Originally posted by turnturtle

it's seeing boats like Canoes which arguably make the Dinghy Show worth attending.....   I'm not sure it really does much to actually encourage someone with vanilla tastes to go and buy one, but a show without a well-strung Merlin, International Canoe, the latest Cherub etc would make an otherwise dull day, even duller.


Exactly. Anyone can buy wetsuit boots online, or books or whatever. Talk sh1t in an adenoidal voice online (well less so last few years it would seem) That side of things is garnish.
Boat show deals on dinghies are nonsense if you cost your time to go to the boat show.
A large and prescient collection of sad blokes latest quixotic endeavours under a well lit roof after a long cold winter is where it's at, lubricated by overpriced lager (at least it's getting colder) with ones mates that one only sees on an annual basis. That is the unique value proposition for me always has been.
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Feb 17 at 1:12pm
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Cirrus

Blaze Fire = 8.8m sail areaBut please 'No' GRF - we are certainly not recommending it for you - it really would not be your cup of tea !


Not on a boat that weighs 72 kgs I agree even sailing off 1070 (What my spreadsheet suggests it should be), Now if the hull weighed 50 kgs had a trapeze and sailed off 1033 as a result, well that would be interesting.

Why wouldn't such a beast rate about 920 or whatever a 600 rates this week?
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