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RS400atC View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 10:19am
Originally posted by Noah

...
Fireball --> Sailing School. Now that would be worth a watch Wink

One of the aspects I found myself surprised at was the Finn 'swing' test, because it was the ability to get weight out of the ends which made the ubiquitous White Winder so successful in the Fireball class. If that's the way the Finns want to maintain their level playing field then good for them. If you don't like the rules - don't join the club.
I guess an actual literate person would use some commas or something to make it clear that the sailing school thing only related to the Wayfarer.
I think Merlins looked into limiting the moment of inertia in some sort of swing test, but decided it didn't matter at the time?
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 10:37am
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by Noah

...
Fireball --> Sailing School. Now that would be worth a watch Wink
I guess an actual literate person would use some commas or something to make it clear that the sailing school thing only related to the Wayfarer.


I knew that Smile
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Thunder Road View Drop Down
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Posts: 372 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Thunder Road Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr 13 at 11:50am
Originally posted by iGRF

Originally posted by Thunder Road

I guess that is like playing rugby in the front 5 of a scrum, you have to experience it to understand it, can I make arrangements for you? Wink


Only if I get to take communal baths with naked men, what is it they do to small boys again which rhymes with rugger?
I was only offering you a go in my boat followed by a Brandy and Babycham, the rest you better make your own arrangements! Embarrassed
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 11:50am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Originally posted by Chris 249

 there seems to be little if any evidence that SMODs are, as a whole, looser in minimum weight than "normal" one designs.

You say this at the end of a long post in which the only SMOD example you quote is a class controlled by the meticulously scientific Frank Bethwaite.  Hardly a typical SMOD alongside the produce of one of the big SMOD manufacturers such as Laser.

While I had the greatest respect for Frank, his interest in design meant that he continually tried to "improve" even the Tasar, hence the major changes in layup as the boat developed. Therefore there is no reason to think that the Tasar production was more controlled than other SMODs, and no reason to think that it's not a reasonable example of SMOD variations and how they can be lower than OD variations a la Phant and Streaker. In fact in my experience the evidence indicates that the Tasar is a very "loose SMOD" in some ways.

The quote from me extolling the Finn situation was taken out of context.  I was not saying I thought that the Finn was the perfect boat - I'm 65 kg for goodness sake  Smile   

I didn't mean to say that you thought the Finn was perfect, and I don't think my post said that.

What I was trying to say is that there is a certain irony in the way that some rulesets appear to assume that the best OD classes restrict certain aspects of design - in the Finn's case, hull shape, weight and weight concentration etc - and then allow free development in other areas (sail shape etc) that can cause a significant difference in performance.

It's a reasonable POV, but is it a BETTER point of view and if so, on what factual grounds?

My implication was that their system of weight management gets them more openly-fair racing than is had by the anal masses who sacrifice sailing and bimbling pleasures and go out and buy a cheap SMOD in the mistaken belief that they are at least all identical and give fair racing.

Perhaps your use of derogatory terms like "anal" and "mistaken" is the core of our disagreement. If certain people decide that they want certain rulesets then who are the rest of us to tell them that they are wrong?

On one hand, I have a similar issue with rule changes in one class I sail; personally I believe that certain modifications that are still banned should have been permitted and other ones that have been permitted should remain banned. However reasonable people in that class disagree. 

OK, so you like bimbling - other's don't. Surely they are allowed to decide that. Bimbling may be a chore to them, unlike buying a good hull which is a one-off thing that, once done well, they can ignore.

I like bimbling on some of my classes and was responsible for the biggest change in 30 years in one SMOD I sail, but that doesn't mean that those who don't like blmbling or changes are wrong, IMHO. 

At the heart of it all, I am saying that people in the 2000 or other classes can have a reasonable disagreement with you about class rules and that it could be accepted as such, without resorting to terms like "anal" and "mistaken belief".

I have good reason to suspect that the tolerance stated in the construction manual for Laser hulls is or at least was around  +/- 10%  That would be significant in marginal planing conditions - certainly more so than the example I quoted about moving a ratchet block from the hull to the boom on an L2k, something which would cost nothing, take 5 minutes to do and would do a lot enhance my sailing experience in the boat, yet is not allowed because it might give me an 'unfair advantage'.  That, to me, is a huge irony.

But even 10% +/- is much less than the Streaker and Phantom cases. There's a massive irony - the fact that SMODs are slighted because of claims that they have up to 10% +/- variation, whereas the "superior" ODs have proven differences that are much larger.

There is also a difference between a problem with the SMOD concept and the execution of it in some classes. That some builders make variable SMODs is not an indictment of the concept as a whole. I am not aware of any significant tolerance in modern Laser weights down here, and my brother and I have both won titles in the class with off-the-shelf boats.

There are also "normal" OD classes that allow wide variations - when I was sailing Etchells our boat wouldn't fit into the same cradle as the older boats!  Let's not even look at classes like the Flying 16.9s, where huge tolerances have been exploited.  So AFAIK claims that SMODs are further from identical than normal ODs remains completely unproven, at the least, and arguably very much against available evidence.

Arguably there's a huge irony in every class. There was huge irony in the days of open-rule 18 Foot Skiffs that bloke A could spend over 100,000 quid (inflation adjusted) and have a legal boat whereas bloke B could spend 1000 quid and but have an "unfair advantage" because his boat was actually 18.06 feet. There's an irony that other people can now have ICs that are significantly lighter and narrower than mine, yet I get pinged if the rope that restricts my plank extension stretches too far (which is one reason my IC remains in a shed).  There's an irony in that an old wooden Finn can get banned as being "too fast" if it exceeds the rise of floor measurement by 2mm, but a carbon Finn is fine.

Compared to those ironies, SMOD rules normally appear reasonable to me.



Edited by Chris 249 - 24 Apr 13 at 11:56am
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Dougaldog View Drop Down
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Posts: 356 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Dougaldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 1:14pm
Chris..........
 
I think it is a sad comment on the way that the sport has gone but the points you carefully made are all too evident in the world of what many call the 'traditional' classes.
 
Right now I'm over half way through a new book on the Merlin Rocket, a book that will include a number of line drawings setting out the hull shape of significant designs. I'm being helped in this by a dinghy designer of significant 'note' who is more than happy to  point out the differences between design A and design B and what those differences would do the boats performance. Recently, we had the lines of two very successful MR designs, both with multiple Championship wins to their credit, with one drawn atop the other. Given the time that had elapsed between the two and the 'supposed' (as promoted) performance difference, the actual variation was minimal, in places scarcely more than the thickness of the drawn line.
 
Now compare this with what are supposed to be the 'senior' international one designs.
Both the 505 and Contender have been mentioned already in this thread, yet both have been subject to significant changes in hull shape - changes that are far greater that those shown between two different MR designs.
 
I used to do an illustrated talk at Sailing Clubs titled "When is a one design not a one design".
In this I pointed out that you could well point the finger at ISAF (or the IYRU as it was then) who washed their hands of this subject back in the early 1980s - before then hull shapes were pretty close to nominal ( a fact that I can confirm having been present when the new hull moulds for both 505s and contenders were measured... and not passed first time as they failed the 'nominal hull shape' test).
 
It is one thing buying an IC, 14, National 12 or MR and finding that a new design has made your investment 'obsolete' but another when this happens with a 'one design'. I'd go so far as to suggest that the failure of the major designs to control their own rules has certainly helped feed the growth of the SMOD.....
 
D
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 1:33pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

Arguably there's a huge irony in every class.

For sure: people or classes get a bee in their bonnet about one factor or another, often ones that are easily noticed or measured, and to the exclusion of others that are just as important but more obscure. As a related example it amuses me that the finish of the average daggerboard is far better than that of the average pivoting board, just because the maintenance is less hassle!

Your red herring about seat extension is another matter entirely of course, but all class rules are essentially arbitrary rather than logical. Writing rules is just so difficult...
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:01pm
Originally posted by Dougaldog

 I'd go so far as to suggest that the failure of the major designs to control their own rules has certainly helped feed the growth of the SMOD.....

Maybe a factor but the main issue is the ease of use/ownership ... the irony in that is that one of the perceptions of ease of ownership is that you don't have to bother with measurement and measurement certificates.

That is all very well if you trust your supplier to produce evenly matched boats that meet the published specification.

Clearly this thread confirms that some manufactures are not quite delivering what they are advertising ... 
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Ian29937 View Drop Down
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Posts: 409 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Ian29937 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by 2547


Originally posted by Dougaldog

<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> I'd go so far as to suggest that the failure of the major designs to control their own rules has certainly helped feed the growth of the SMOD.....</span>

Maybe a factor but the main issue is the ease of use/ownership ... the irony in that is that one of the perceptions of ease of ownership is that you don't have to bother with measurement and measurement certificates.
That is all very well if you trust your supplier to produce evenly matched boats that meet the published specification.
Clearly this thread confirms that some manufactures are not quite delivering what they are advertising ... 


Which is why the designer and class association took the rights to build away...
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2547 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 2547 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:16pm
Originally posted by Ian29937

Originally posted by 2547


Originally posted by Dougaldog

<span style="line-height: 1.4;"> I'd go so far as to suggest that the failure of the major designs to control their own rules has certainly helped feed the growth of the SMOD.....</span>

Maybe a factor but the main issue is the ease of use/ownership ... the irony in that is that one of the perceptions of ease of ownership is that you don't have to bother with measurement and measurement certificates.
That is all very well if you trust your supplier to produce evenly matched boats that meet the published specification.
Clearly this thread confirms that some manufactures are not quite delivering what they are advertising ... 


Which is why the designer and class association took the rights to build away...

Eh ... I think the OP was highlighting that his RS200 was 12kgs more than advertised ... has the RS200 changed?
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr 13 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by Chris 249

 
Happy to agree/disagree as you've indicated.

My use of derogatory terms stems from frustration that our only club fleet racing - which I'd like to enjoy - is in a class that made a huge issue about whether D12 could be used for the mainsheet bridle yet apparently adopts a head in the sand attitude to variations in hull weight.

That class mentality stops me making the few cost-free mods that would tip the balance to enable to me to enjoy sailing the boat.  I think if you raced a 2k you'd be better able to understand my point.
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