Fireball Questions

Originally posted by pondmonkey I see where you're going, but the market response has been mute.  The RS200 had a square running system long before the Asbo came around.  The class voted it out.  L4000 has a wing-wang... that boat is dead, replaced with RS800s and RS500s - neither of which favour a squaring system. I don't doubt the Alto 'works' to compromise this.  I just don't see the take up or the market really wanting it.  We've had 500s come and go at our club.  But the Fireball remains the far more popular choice- with mixed age bracket crews loving getting involved.

The 200 did not have a kite at all as originally designed. It was added since it was so slow. It was  a retrofit but the canting pole could not be added, thus the square running system was added. Clearly Morrison believed it needed it. It was on his two earlier designs, the 400 and L4000. The class voted it out not because it did not pay but it was difficult to use. Thus it now suffers having to zig zag, but I believe the 200 is a good club boat and can sail quite deep. I suggest the 4000 is dead not because of the wing/wang but due to the boats weight, discomfort and difficulty to sail. The 400 is hanging in.
Wing/wangs were not fitted to later asymmetric designs due to the price wars between the three SMODS. Laser told me that the could not consider a wing/wang or swinging pole if it added more than £25 to the cost.
IMO, winging poles are an advantage on boats with kites up to say 20m2 and PYs higher than approx.900. in medium and  light winds, and depending on tide. Not having them on boats with high PYs and small kites meant most would not survive. These classes were doomed before launch.

I was asked by a Vision sailor to sail his boat and try and establish why it seldom payed to fly the kite. He found that a Vision goose-winging the jib would nearly always go faster boat for boat when running in even medium winds. The answer was simple. It needed a swinging pole. Another boat that desperately needs one is the L2000

I'm not surprised the 500s have come and gone at your club. they might have hung in if they had a swinging pole.

I know it has been done but did they use a different mast? Lets see the picture.........

Originally posted by oldarnus ... The 200 did not have a kite at all as originally designed. It was added since it was so slow. It was  a retrofit but the canting pole could not be added, thus the square running system was added. Clearly Morrison believed it needed it. It was on his two earlier designs, the 400 and L4000. The class voted it out not because it did not pay but it was difficult to use. Thus it now suffers having to zig zag, but I believe the 200 is a good club boat and can sail quite deep. I suggest the 4000 is dead not because of the wing/wang but due to the boats weight, discomfort and difficulty to sail. The 400 is hanging in. Wing/wangs were not fitted to later asymmetric designs due to the price wars between the three SMODS. Laser told me that the could not consider a wing/wang or swinging pole if it added more than £25 to the cost. IMO, winging poles are an advantage on boats with kites up to say 20m2 and PYs higher than approx.900. in medium and  light winds, and depending on tide. Not having them on boats with high PYs and small kites meant most would not survive. These classes were doomed before launch. I was asked by a Vision sailor to sail his boat and try and establish why it seldom payed to fly the kite. He found that a Vision goose-winging the jib would nearly always go faster boat for boat when running in even medium winds. The answer was simple. It needed a swinging pole. Another boat that desperately needs one is the L2000 I'm not surprised the 500s have come and gone at your club. they might have hung in if they had a swinging pole.

What the Vision needs is some serious weight loss.
It's actually a decent hull shape and can embarass RS400s in light to medium weather upwind.
It's great for teaching kids to crew with an asy.
The 200 is just horribly slow in my view, but that means the yoofs and hooligans can sail it in a near gale, and in sensible breeze it delivers close class racing. I think the SRS was really kicked out because it does not fit the image and tends to spoil the tactical games of w/l racing.
Even Mr Bethwaite said in one of his books that asy's are fairly pointless with boats that are fundamentally too slow. In my view, the 400 is about as slow a boat as you can have to make the asy pay over a symmetric kite. And without the wing-wang, it would probably be in the 'too slow' camp a lot of the time.
But if the aim of your game is not pure speed but more enjoyable sailing with a simpler boat, the slower asy classes make a lot of sense. That suits a lot of people, but it's a crowded market, and the SMOD merchants keep diluting the beer with yet more quasi-classes, and too many people will buy a new Vagno or Tago over a used RS200 or whatever.

Contrast hoisting an RS kite by numbers with a Merlin:
Pull purple string, pull red string, pull black string till it's all the way up, pull the blue string till it stops flapping.
Anyway to get back on topic, if you want speed, you need power/weight.
I can't see a Fireball hull delivering that any better than the Alto, it is quite narrow.
Go and ask for a test sail in an 800.
Then buy an old twin wire 14....
If you want performance in the 'PY below about 900' league, the need to wingwang the pole has mostly gone. It makes a big difference on the 400, but much less on the 4000. 29ers don't often seem to be held back by not having it.
If the pivoting plate is non-negotiable, you want either a cheap twin wire boat and a box of angle grinder discs, or a second string for the Alto.
My Dad put a plate case in a rowing dinghy once, it really would not be very hard to do.
Perhaps a Furball will be the plate donor?
Of course you would lose the ability to have the plate lifted a bit without being moved back.
Jon Turner's Shebazzle has a hatchet plate, where the pivot is right forward, connected to the foil by a sort of arm, lifting it 20 or 30% only moves it back a little, of course being a Merlin you can rake the rig back to compensate for that anyway.

Pah......we sailed ours on a lake and had no problem. Mind you the Lightning I sail now has a centreboard and it is convenient. By the way a B14 is quite Tasar like but has less freeboard. We had one of those as well. Close your mind to the designer....Frank B*******e.

Well yes Jim....but it is the 'Silly Season'. There is a Cherub on ebay for you as well!