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Windward Mark to Starboard
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Simon368 View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Windward Mark to Starboard
    Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:26am
Two boats on Starboard tack aproach the windward mark. The mark is to be left to Starboard. Boat B to leeward is ahead but Boat A to windward is overlapped.
 
Entering the 3 boat length circle Boat A realising he has overstood the mark bears off and calls for water. Boat B who is laying the mark for a perfect rounding says no. The results are obvious. After a little discussing Boat B did his turns to save his place and not risk disqualification.
 
Surely Boat B had every right to hold his course and not let Boat A in?
 
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:45am
Nope, Bote B must let boat A if there's the overlap. Boat A MUST though carry out (or at the very least, try to) a good tight rounding.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:52am
I was boat B - I'd not over stood the mark and didn't need to bear away, boat A was pinching like hell to shut me out...
 
Glad I got it right.
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bornskiffyish View Drop Down
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Posts: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bornskiffyish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 1:19pm
if you were boat B boat A could not possably of been pinching to shut you out. As boat A was to windward so they would of gained nothing by pinching other than loosing speed
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Simon368 View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 1:43pm
No Rupert in the incident on Saturday you were boat A to windward which is what made me rethink this rule. Whether Robbie was pinching or not is not relavent. In that wind, or total absence of wind,  it is hard to be sure on that point. 
The incident I actually described was one that happened with Paul and I at Haversham when he reached into no. 9 and called water. As there was a small gap I had no choice but to let him in or risk a collision which would ahve been very naughty. 
 
The issue I want to understand is can you call water at a windward mark when on the same tack. I always believed from team racing days you had every right to shut out the windward boat, but with new rules I am not so sure as I have seen this incident many times this year.
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SoggyBadger View Drop Down
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SoggyBadger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 2:08pm
Originally posted by Simon368

The issue I want to understand is can you call water at a windward mark when on the same tack. I always believed from team racing days you had every right to shut out the windward boat, but with new rules I am not so sure as I have seen this incident many times this year.


Yes you can call for water at a windward mark (assuming you've acquired the overlap in time). As far as I can remember (since the late 1960s) this has always been the case. I did quite a bit of team racing in Merlins in my youth and I don't recall the rule being any different for that. Perhaps you team raced under a different set of rules?
Best wishes from deep in the woods

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Simon368 View Drop Down
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Posts: 20 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Simon368 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 2:14pm
sarcasm, like it, but not very helpful.
As with most people my knowledge of the rules has many holes in it that are usualy discussed later in the bar. After a long absence, the rules have changed and my memory of them has dimmed, but I try...

so in future if someone calls water at any mark and has the right I have to let them in.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 3:34pm
Firstly let us clarify we are talking about Mark Room which is clearly defined in the RRS and is applicable when the bow of the closest boat enters and imaginary circle with a radius of 3 boat lengths (unless this has been varied to 2 or 4 by the SI's).
 
If a boat has established the overlap 'at the zone' then they are entitled to Mark Room which is room to sail to then proper course at said mark.
 
It sounds to me like it was clear cut and the overlap was established (and agreed by both both boats) therefore Mark Room should have been given.
 
Remember you are always bound to avoid a collision if possible and protest/request redress later.
 
Just my 2p, I am sure Brass will be along shortly to clarify, he always seems to appear when there are Rules questions....
Paul
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 4:46pm
Remember that for an inside overlapped boat entitled to mark room - mark room includes room to tack

If however a boat is clear ahead when they enter the zone the boat clear astern is not required to give them room to tack - they can push clear ahead boat beyond the mark.

Gordon
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 4:59pm
Sorry, Simon, got the boats the wrong way round.
You are right, Gordon, the idea that the boat ahead wasn't allowed to tack at the mark if it would interfere with the boat behind was one that was causing chaos at the marks in the very light wind, especially as this meant that boats coming in on port not only had to be clear of a boat tacking round the mark from port but from those unable to tack. There would then be a general mess a little way from the mark, and boats coming in later could slip through the gap and sail away. Thats life, I guess!  
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