Racing Rules: Windward Mark to Starboard

Print Page | Close Window

Windward Mark to Starboard

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7341
Printed Date: 25 Jun 25 at 12:38am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com

Topic: Windward Mark to Starboard

Posted By: Simon368
Subject: Windward Mark to Starboard
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:26am

Two boats on Starboard tack aproach the windward mark. The mark is to be left to Starboard. Boat B to leeward is ahead but Boat A to windward is overlapped.

Entering the 3 boat length circle Boat A realising he has overstood the mark bears off and calls for water. Boat B who is laying the mark for a perfect rounding says no. The results are obvious. After a little discussing Boat B did his turns to save his place and not risk disqualification.

Surely Boat B had every right to hold his course and not let Boat A in?

Replies:

Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:45am

Nope, Bote B must let boat A if there's the overlap. Boat A MUST though carry out (or at the very least, try to) a good tight rounding.

-------------
-_
Al

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 11:52am

I was boat B - I'd not over stood the mark and didn't need to bear away, boat A was pinching like hell to shut me out...

Glad I got it right.

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: bornskiffyish
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 1:19pm

if you were boat B boat A could not possably of been pinching to shut you out. As boat A was to windward so they would of gained nothing by pinching other than loosing speed

Posted By: Simon368
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 1:43pm

No Rupert in the incident on Saturday you were boat A to windward which is what made me rethink this rule. Whether Robbie was pinching or not is not relavent. In that wind, or total absence of wind, it is hard to be sure on that point.

The incident I actually described was one that happened with Paul and I at Haversham when he reached into no. 9 and called water. As there was a small gap I had no choice but to let him in or risk a collision which would ahve been very naughty.

The issue I want to understand is can you call water at a windward mark when on the same tack. I always believed from team racing days you had every right to shut out the windward boat, but with new rules I am not so sure as I have seen this incident many times this year.

Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 2:08pm

Originally posted by Simon368

The issue I want to understand is can you call water at a windward mark when on the same tack. I always believed from team racing days you had every right to shut out the windward boat, but with new rules I am not so sure as I have seen this incident many times this year.

Yes you can call for water at a windward mark (assuming you've acquired the overlap in time). As far as I can remember (since the late 1960s) this has always been the case. I did quite a bit of team racing in Merlins in my youth and I don't recall the rule being any different for that. Perhaps you team raced under a different set of rules?

-------------
Best wishes from deep in the woods

SB

Posted By: Simon368
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 2:14pm

sarcasm, like it, but not very helpful.

As with most people my knowledge of the rules has many holes in it that are usualy discussed later in the bar. After a long absence, the rules have changed and my memory of them has dimmed, but I try...

so in future if someone calls water at any mark and has the right I have to let them in.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 3:34pm

Firstly let us clarify we are talking about Mark Room which is clearly defined in the RRS and is applicable when the bow of the closest boat enters and imaginary circle with a radius of 3 boat lengths (unless this has been varied to 2 or 4 by the SI's).

If a boat has established the overlap 'at the zone' then they are entitled to Mark Room which is room to sail to then proper course at said mark.

It sounds to me like it was clear cut and the overlap was established (and agreed by both both boats) therefore Mark Room should have been given.

Remember you are always bound to avoid a collision if possible and protest/request redress later.

Just my 2p, I am sure Brass will be along shortly to clarify, he always seems to appear when there are Rules questions....

-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 4:46pm

Remember that for an inside overlapped boat entitled to mark room - mark room includes room to tack

If however a boat is clear ahead when they enter the zone the boat clear astern is not required to give them room to tack - they can push clear ahead boat beyond the mark.

Gordon

-------------
Gordon

Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 4:59pm

Sorry, Simon, got the boats the wrong way round.

You are right, Gordon, the idea that the boat ahead wasn't allowed to tack at the mark if it would interfere with the boat behind was one that was causing chaos at the marks in the very light wind, especially as this meant that boats coming in on port not only had to be clear of a boat tacking round the mark from port but from those unable to tack. There would then be a general mess a little way from the mark, and boats coming in later could slip through the gap and sail away. Thats life, I guess!

-------------
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 5:11pm

Often in team racing a boat will come in on port a boat length above the lay line and sail round the melee.

Gordon

-------------
Gordon

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Nov 10 at 10:07pm

Originally posted by jeffers

I am sure Brass will be along shortly to clarify, he always seems to appear when there are Rules questions....

Not necessarily if Gordon gets here first <g>

Posted By: Simon368
Date Posted: 09 Nov 10 at 9:26am

Thanks gentelmen for a clear explanation. I now understand. Still doesn't make starboard roundings in light winds any more pleasant.

And yes Rupert having to continue on because I couldn't tack in front of Adam at the first mark meant I then had to sail around two or three boats stuck head to wind and allow all the port tackers in behind me to slip through the gap left between the boats in irons. That cost me a possible 3rd at the windward mark instead of the 8th I actually got!

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Nov 10 at 9:35am

If you've gone right on the beat tack well before the lay line - this leaves you the optopn of sailing beyond the port tack laylin eif there is a traffic jam at the windward mark.

Gordon

-------------
Gordon

Posted By: bawbag
Date Posted: 09 Nov 10 at 11:09am

starboard roundings tend to be messy at best , thats why most ro's try to give port roundings where possible , most championship courses are based on port roundings , rules better suited .

(head down !)

although in certain circumstances they cant be avoided.

Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 09 Nov 10 at 11:14am

Starboard roundings are far more fun - which is why they are used in team racing and match racing.

Some people (not me I hasten to add) claim that starboard roundings are better for big fleets as the boat that has to tack is protected before she tacks by being on starboard.

Gordon

-------------
Gordon

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 09 Nov 10 at 11:29am

Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by jeffers

I am sure Brass will be along shortly to clarify, he always seems to appear when there are Rules questions....

Not necessarily if Gordon gets here first <g>

I knew someone else would pipe up....

Starboard roundings are quite common in club 'round the cans' courses and can be fun.....

The bar banter after of often worth the chaos...

-------------
Paul
----------------------
D-Zero GBR 74