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KazRob View Drop Down
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nature or nurture
    Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 9:44pm
A recent post by the normally controversial iGRF praising the Phantom has had me thinking. How much of a boat's appeal (when it is actually sailed) is down to the genius of the designer and how much is down to tweaks, modernisation and developments over the years. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that development and tweaks over the years can make a good basic boat design boat great to sail. If the Phantom had been a SMOD would it still have appeal today? Or indeed are we seeing boats like the RS400, which was once thought of as a 'modern' Merlin, being slowly made to look old fashioned by the new Merlins with raking carbon rigs?
Of course I'm not really opening the discussion of whether restricted classes are better than SMODs but more whether the middle ground of slowly tweaked one designs makes the boats better in the long run (and should the SMODs move that way in time)
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 10:17pm
Thing is, the development in any class over the years isn't to make it 'better', whatever better is, it's to make it better at winning races within the rule set. Faster clearly isn't better, at least in terms of popularity, because the fastest boats aren't the most popular. And you can tweak to your hearts content, but it does't matter how much makeup you put on a pig, its still a pig. On the other hand if a boat is fundamentally rubbish, who's going to put the effort in?

Edited by JimC - 30 Aug 17 at 10:44pm
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 10:44pm
That maybe so Jim, but by all accounts an early Finn with a wooden mast was an absolute pig to sail but somehow in becoming faster its now transformed into a veritable gentlemens refined singlehander. Is it faster? Yes. Is it 'better' - judging by numbers now sailed at non-Olympic level - yes
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 11:30pm
this is a really interesting question. 

After quite some pondering, I'm thinking a pro-active builder makes a huge difference, in a way a class association cannot.

IIR, the Phantom took off when someone decided they could build a great version of a good design in Epoxy. A moribund class then became anything but.

Looking at it the other way, the Lark has been surplanted by the RS200, largely, I'd argue because, as the Lark's builder lost interest, RS filled the void with energy and enthusiasm (I accept Uni funding changes had an impact too, but the lark should have been strong enough to weather that) In similar vein, would the *ero designs even got off the drawing board if the Laser was being cherished by its builders (and evolved as a result - mainsheet around the stern quarter anyone?) rather than becoming an abused, over-milked cash-cow with appalling (IMHO) owners.

I can't claim to know much about the Supernova but i get the impression Hartleys deserve a lot of credit for lifting it well beyond the plateau it seemed to have stalled upon.

As for the 300s, they now seem stronger with Boatyard at Beer than with RS who also lose interest when it suits them. No change in the build, rules or anything, although you can go wild with the gelcoat colour now. The 400 seems safe with RS for now as they've managed to establish a chunky price for a new one, but in modernity terms, the Merlin is miles ahead.

However, a design needs the potential. As JimC says, some designs aren't worth the lipstick. No need to name names is there? Others will never make up lost ground no matter how good the design or bold the change (lark again, sadly)

As grumph likes to point out, one-design owners are naturally resistent to change, because they cost money. Builders though want to make money, which changes enable. As ever, -termism is a key driver. 

Which all leads me to the conclusion that we need a balance of power between strong class assocs and ambitious builders and that as soon as one of them loses interest or becomes too luddite (or over-reaching, Cherub anyone?) trouble looms.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 11:34pm
Well, I've got a SMOD (Tiger F18 cat) where the class rules were modified to make it better to sail and faster. The problem is that the class has basically collapsed; it's gone from something like 80 boats at world or European champs and some national titles to getting a fleet of half a dozen boats once or twice a year, and at national level it's clinging on in microscopic numbers in one country and fairly active in one more. The situation is complicated - cat classes do tend to come and go Tiger sits inside the F18 class and Hobie brought out a newer OD F18 - but one can't help thinking that a lot of people who were faced with buying a new set of sails and new kit to keep their Tiger going may well have said "sod it, I'll spend that money on a different boat" and got out of the class entirely.

If we are to judge the success of the concept by its popularity (which is perfectly reasonable IMHO) then one could also reply by saying that the Finn is still nowhere near as popular as the Laser, and not growing as fast as the Aero.

One other point is that most other countries are much more into local one design class racing than the UK, almost certainly (IMHO) because of geography, and that seems to mean that there is much more emphasis on reducing development. In places with fewer or more scattered sailors, there's arguably less class-on-class competition to be the "best" boat, and more emphasis on ensuring all the existing boats remain competitive. Here in Oz, you can see the effect of population density on class churn quite dramatically when you look from state to state, although we are dealing with a small sample size.

The issue is that if an international class caters for the UK enthusiasm for modifications, it may lose fleets elsewhere. I've been in a couple of classes where the attitude of the UK fleet to modifications was very different to that of other countries.

One reason that people give for modifying ODs is that without change, classes die. That's simply not true. The oldest one design boat of all is still very much true to its original design, albeit now in 'glass. The oldest International dinghy of all is still popular in Holland, where they have allowed dacron but hulls must still be mahogany, and ones with modern construction and gear are doing very well in Italy. The original one design keelboats died, but the oldest international (small i) keelboat class still hasn't allowed tiller extensions and it's still rumbling along.  

Arguably since it's such a complex question there's no real optimum answer. Personally I'm in favour of change to reduce production cost, increase equipment life and make sailing easier, but NOT to make my SMODs faster; I don't want the race to get down to a contest of wallets. 

PS - Perhaps one reason the Finn's development works well internationally is its fame and a flow of used leading-edge kit back from Olympic aspirants?




Edited by Chris 249 - 30 Aug 17 at 11:46pm
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 9:41am
Our OP sails OKs. There is a boat which has managed to change from a plywood boxy Finn trainer to a highly successful international class, despite its popularity being eaten into by the Laser.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 9:53am
What puzzles me is how whatever happened to the Phantom, can't happen to say the Solution, they were initially presented when I first came across them at the dinghy show, circa 2006/7 as sister craft, but I assume it's the class, that has 'nurtured' the Phantom into levels of choice I had no idea existed until I posted that thread.

Not that it's easy to find details of how to acquire a 'high mod mast' for lightweights or a flat cut sail and there lies the problem one I've talked about time and again the weakness of marketing.

That's where RS have always scored having experienced the white hot marketing competition that was windsurfing in the 80's and 90's and applied it to the dinghy business model (and the acquisition of a company formed by one of the early windsurfing marketeers).

But to get back to the nature v nurtture thing, fundamentally the profit motivator will always seek to innovate and the group 'class' mentality will always seek to protect their investment so there forever lies a battleground a battleground where as I've often been recorded as pointing out, the wrong side have the upper hand.

Quite how the Phantom slipped through the luddite net is beyond me, but it is a lovely boat and everyone should have one at some point in their career, or a Solution if your water is restricted, they are a super matched pair, one for the sea the other for inland not that they don't both do both, but in my circumstance that's what works.

Edited by iGRF - 31 Aug 17 at 9:54am
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Posts: 822 		Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 10:28am
Thing is, the development in any class over the years isn't to make it 'better', whatever better is, it's to make it better at winning races within the rule set.

True, but it's not really the whole story. A lot of changes that make boats faster may also make them easier, or just more pleasurable, to sail as well. In fact it would be quite possible for a change that didn't improve maximum speed, and perhaps even reduced it slightly, to be adopted if it made it easier for more people to sail the boat nearer to its potential.

Things like carbon poles can improve gust response, reduce tip weight with various benefits - both to speed and sailability. Carbon booms hurt a lot less when you get your head in the wrong place, in addition to any other benefits. Improved control line systems may improve overall speed as they make it easier to sail with optimum settings, but they may also make a boat more manageable and pleasurable to sail. Better deck profiles can improve hiking, which may improve overall speeds achieved, but they can do it by making hiking less painful.


Edited by PeterG - 31 Aug 17 at 10:28am
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fab100 View Drop Down
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Posts: 1005 		Post Options Post Options   Quote fab100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:01am
Originally posted by PeterG

 Better deck profiles
... can mean the boat comes up dry as opposed to swamped, after a capsize. That can be a huge performance driver; you can sail the boat harder, nearer the edge, safe in the knowledge that a mistake does not necessarily mean, effectively, race-over.

Compare the loss in capsizing a laser (so what) with an Ent (might as well go home, unless they are all doing it)
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:16am
Some of the traditional classes have seen growth when a builder has a good idea for engineering and ergonomics, in the classes that I have been involved there was real growth in the National 12 with the Paper Dart, which was a huge step forward in ease of sailing, the Ovington Benedict 4 was another example where everything worked and was in the right place and never let you down, and now the Winder Merlin Rockets and Solos are also fully sorted.  Basically all af these boats were a pleasure to sail and own.  They have all been built and marketed by perfectionists who have been active and have the eye for detail that is required to succeed in these fleets.  These boats may not have been the absolute fastest in every condition, but cost of ownership and campaigning both in time and money is/was most acceptable.

IMO some of the SMOD classes have it, and others fail, and the ones that catch my eye are those that have taken a snapshot of the development classes and succesfully taken advantage of materials and developments outside of the constraints of those traditional classes.  This has a rich history, Graduates, Larks and Europes are all spin off classes.  More recently the RS200 and RS400 have and are still succeeding.  Again the people driving these classes forward have done the miles and understand the market.

What really does not work for me is the plethora of "me too" products where SMOD's have identified gaps in the market, often in the wake of RS, but where the deliverables have been compromised in an effort to achieve a low price point and maintain a high margin.  To my mind these businesses have failed to fully understand their market, and are often staffed by people who have failed to cut it on the UK Dinghy scene.
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