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Nature or nurture

Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12839
Printed Date: 05 Jul 25 at 4:19am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Nature or nurture
Posted By: KazRob
Subject: Nature or nurture
Date Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 9:44pm
A recent post by the normally controversial iGRF praising the Phantom has had me thinking. How much of a boat's appeal (when it is actually sailed) is down to the genius of the designer and how much is down to tweaks, modernisation and developments over the years. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that development and tweaks over the years can make a good basic boat design boat great to sail. If the Phantom had been a SMOD would it still have appeal today? Or indeed are we seeing boats like the RS400, which was once thought of as a 'modern' Merlin, being slowly made to look old fashioned by the new Merlins with raking carbon rigs?
Of course I'm not really opening the discussion of whether restricted classes are better than SMODs but more whether the middle ground of slowly tweaked one designs makes the boats better in the long run (and should the SMODs move that way in time)


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OK 2249
D-1 138



Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 10:17pm
Thing is, the development in any class over the years isn't to make it 'better', whatever better is, it's to make it better at winning races within the rule set. Faster clearly isn't better, at least in terms of popularity, because the fastest boats aren't the most popular. And you can tweak to your hearts content, but it does't matter how much makeup you put on a pig, its still a pig. On the other hand if a boat is fundamentally rubbish, who's going to put the effort in?


Posted By: KazRob
Date Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 10:44pm
That maybe so Jim, but by all accounts an early Finn with a wooden mast was an absolute pig to sail but somehow in becoming faster its now transformed into a veritable gentlemens refined singlehander. Is it faster? Yes. Is it 'better' - judging by numbers now sailed at non-Olympic level - yes

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OK 2249
D-1 138


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 11:30pm
this is a really interesting question. 

After quite some pondering, I'm thinking a pro-active builder makes a huge difference, in a way a class association cannot.

IIR, the Phantom took off when someone decided they could build a great version of a good design in Epoxy. A moribund class then became anything but.

Looking at it the other way, the Lark has been surplanted by the RS200, largely, I'd argue because, as the Lark's builder lost interest, RS filled the void with energy and enthusiasm (I accept Uni funding changes had an impact too, but the lark should have been strong enough to weather that) In similar vein, would the *ero designs even got off the drawing board if the Laser was being cherished by its builders (and evolved as a result - mainsheet around the stern quarter anyone?) rather than becoming an abused, over-milked cash-cow with appalling (IMHO) owners.

I can't claim to know much about the Supernova but i get the impression Hartleys deserve a lot of credit for lifting it well beyond the plateau it seemed to have stalled upon.

As for the 300s, they now seem stronger with Boatyard at Beer than with RS who also lose interest when it suits them. No change in the build, rules or anything, although you can go wild with the gelcoat colour now. The 400 seems safe with RS for now as they've managed to establish a chunky price for a new one, but in modernity terms, the Merlin is miles ahead.

However, a design needs the potential. As JimC says, some designs aren't worth the lipstick. No need to name names is there? Others will never make up lost ground no matter how good the design or bold the change (lark again, sadly)

As grumph likes to point out, one-design owners are naturally resistent to change, because they cost money. Builders though want to make money, which changes enable. As ever, -termism is a key driver. 

Which all leads me to the conclusion that we need a balance of power between strong class assocs and ambitious builders and that as soon as one of them loses interest or becomes too luddite (or over-reaching, Cherub anyone?) trouble looms.





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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 30 Aug 17 at 11:34pm
Well, I've got a SMOD (Tiger F18 cat) where the class rules were modified to make it better to sail and faster. The problem is that the class has basically collapsed; it's gone from something like 80 boats at world or European champs and some national titles to getting a fleet of half a dozen boats once or twice a year, and at national level it's clinging on in microscopic numbers in one country and fairly active in one more. The situation is complicated - cat classes do tend to come and go Tiger sits inside the F18 class and Hobie brought out a newer OD F18 - but one can't help thinking that a lot of people who were faced with buying a new set of sails and new kit to keep their Tiger going may well have said "sod it, I'll spend that money on a different boat" and got out of the class entirely.

If we are to judge the success of the concept by its popularity (which is perfectly reasonable IMHO) then one could also reply by saying that the Finn is still nowhere near as popular as the Laser, and not growing as fast as the Aero.

One other point is that most other countries are much more into local one design class racing than the UK, almost certainly (IMHO) because of geography, and that seems to mean that there is much more emphasis on reducing development. In places with fewer or more scattered sailors, there's arguably less class-on-class competition to be the "best" boat, and more emphasis on ensuring all the existing boats remain competitive. Here in Oz, you can see the effect of population density on class churn quite dramatically when you look from state to state, although we are dealing with a small sample size.

The issue is that if an international class caters for the UK enthusiasm for modifications, it may lose fleets elsewhere. I've been in a couple of classes where the attitude of the UK fleet to modifications was very different to that of other countries.

One reason that people give for modifying ODs is that without change, classes die. That's simply not true. The oldest one design boat of all is still very much true to its original design, albeit now in 'glass. The oldest International dinghy of all is still popular in Holland, where they have allowed dacron but hulls must still be mahogany, and ones with modern construction and gear are doing very well in Italy. The original one design keelboats died, but the oldest international (small i) keelboat class still hasn't allowed tiller extensions and it's still rumbling along.  

Arguably since it's such a complex question there's no real optimum answer. Personally I'm in favour of change to reduce production cost, increase equipment life and make sailing easier, but NOT to make my SMODs faster; I don't want the race to get down to a contest of wallets. 

PS - Perhaps one reason the Finn's development works well internationally is its fame and a flow of used leading-edge kit back from Olympic aspirants?




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sailcraftblog.wordpress.com

The history and design of the racing dinghy.


Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 9:41am
Our OP sails OKs. There is a boat which has managed to change from a plywood boxy Finn trainer to a highly successful international class, despite its popularity being eaten into by the Laser.

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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 9:53am
What puzzles me is how whatever happened to the Phantom, can't happen to say the Solution, they were initially presented when I first came across them at the dinghy show, circa 2006/7 as sister craft, but I assume it's the class, that has 'nurtured' the Phantom into levels of choice I had no idea existed until I posted that thread.

Not that it's easy to find details of how to acquire a 'high mod mast' for lightweights or a flat cut sail and there lies the problem one I've talked about time and again the weakness of marketing.

That's where RS have always scored having experienced the white hot marketing competition that was windsurfing in the 80's and 90's and applied it to the dinghy business model (and the acquisition of a company formed by one of the early windsurfing marketeers).

But to get back to the nature v nurtture thing, fundamentally the profit motivator will always seek to innovate and the group 'class' mentality will always seek to protect their investment so there forever lies a battleground a battleground where as I've often been recorded as pointing out, the wrong side have the upper hand.

Quite how the Phantom slipped through the luddite net is beyond me, but it is a lovely boat and everyone should have one at some point in their career, or a Solution if your water is restricted, they are a super matched pair, one for the sea the other for inland not that they don't both do both, but in my circumstance that's what works.

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Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 10:28am
Thing is, the development in any class over the years isn't to make it 'better', whatever better is, it's to make it better at winning races within the rule set.

True, but it's not really the whole story. A lot of changes that make boats faster may also make them easier, or just more pleasurable, to sail as well. In fact it would be quite possible for a change that didn't improve maximum speed, and perhaps even reduced it slightly, to be adopted if it made it easier for more people to sail the boat nearer to its potential.

Things like carbon poles can improve gust response, reduce tip weight with various benefits - both to speed and sailability. Carbon booms hurt a lot less when you get your head in the wrong place, in addition to any other benefits. Improved control line systems may improve overall speed as they make it easier to sail with optimum settings, but they may also make a boat more manageable and pleasurable to sail. Better deck profiles can improve hiking, which may improve overall speeds achieved, but they can do it by making hiking less painful.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:01am
Originally posted by PeterG

 Better deck profiles
... can mean the boat comes up dry as opposed to swamped, after a capsize. That can be a huge performance driver; you can sail the boat harder, nearer the edge, safe in the knowledge that a mistake does not necessarily mean, effectively, race-over.

Compare the loss in capsizing a laser (so what) with an Ent (might as well go home, unless they are all doing it)


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:16am
Some of the traditional classes have seen growth when a builder has a good idea for engineering and ergonomics, in the classes that I have been involved there was real growth in the National 12 with the Paper Dart, which was a huge step forward in ease of sailing, the Ovington Benedict 4 was another example where everything worked and was in the right place and never let you down, and now the Winder Merlin Rockets and Solos are also fully sorted.  Basically all af these boats were a pleasure to sail and own.  They have all been built and marketed by perfectionists who have been active and have the eye for detail that is required to succeed in these fleets.  These boats may not have been the absolute fastest in every condition, but cost of ownership and campaigning both in time and money is/was most acceptable.

IMO some of the SMOD classes have it, and others fail, and the ones that catch my eye are those that have taken a snapshot of the development classes and succesfully taken advantage of materials and developments outside of the constraints of those traditional classes.  This has a rich history, Graduates, Larks and Europes are all spin off classes.  More recently the RS200 and RS400 have and are still succeeding.  Again the people driving these classes forward have done the miles and understand the market.

What really does not work for me is the plethora of "me too" products where SMOD's have identified gaps in the market, often in the wake of RS, but where the deliverables have been compromised in an effort to achieve a low price point and maintain a high margin.  To my mind these businesses have failed to fully understand their market, and are often staffed by people who have failed to cut it on the UK Dinghy scene.


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Happily living in the past


Posted By: fab100
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:26am
Comparing dinghies and leadmines is interesting too.

I suspect most dinghy sailors see their boat as an 'investment' in that they intend to keep it for years (and years and years and years) only spending money on consumables and essential maintenance (my laser will be 20 years old next year and I can still get it into the chocolates at our Open Meeting).

Conversely, buy a racing keelboat and, in many instances, it needs chucking away after 2 or 3 years because the vast majority have jumped onto the next bandwagon. No one will want to buy it. I'm thinking 1720s, Melges, Farr 30s and the like. They come and go really quickly. Cats seem to by the same too, as Chris249 describes above.

and yes I accept there are many exceptions to prove the rule. But most of those are 'traditional' classes with a long heritage (XOD, Dragon etc)

So, perhaps, the default position of inertial-drag is a good thing; otherwise, we'd have even less class racing in dinghies


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http://clubsailor.co.uk/wp/club-sailor-from-back-to-front/" rel="nofollow - Great book for Club Sailors here


Posted By: PeterV
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 11:54am
Originally posted by KazRob

That maybe so Jim, but by all accounts an early Finn with a wooden mast was an absolute pig to sail but somehow in becoming faster its now transformed into a veritable gentlemens refined singlehander. Is it faster? Yes. Is it 'better' - judging by numbers now sailed at non-Olympic level - yes


Amusing, I've just come back from 3 days racing my Finn with a wooden mast! But I admit the mast is a developed one by Bruder and it's got reasonably modern (well 1970s) controls!

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PeterV
Finn K197, Finn GBR564, GK29
Warsash


Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by KazRob

A recent post by the normally controversial iGRF praising the Phantom has had me thinking. How much of a boat's appeal (when it is actually sailed) is down to the genius of the designer and how much is down to tweaks, modernisation and developments over the years. I'm firmly in the camp that thinks that development and tweaks over the years can make a good basic boat design boat great to sail. If the Phantom had been a SMOD would it still have appeal today? Or indeed are we seeing boats like the RS400, which was once thought of as a 'modern' Merlin, being slowly made to look old fashioned by the new Merlins with raking carbon rigs?
Of course I'm not really opening the discussion of whether restricted classes are better than SMODs but more whether the middle ground of slowly tweaked one designs makes the boats better in the long run (and should the SMODs move that way in time)
The thing about the Phantom and the Finn is that they have a clear niche. Big blokes.

The 400 was part of two movements. Firstly Asy's for the masses. Secondly a kick-back against high costs of new dinghies in some classes at the time, as everything was getting too bespoke and not only expensive, but you had to make a whole load of choices about what kind of rig you wanted or even hull shape on the most high profile classes. Merlins of that era were getting raking rigs, but not one-string, so were not the easiest thing to sail well. So an OD with less choices must have appealed to a lot of people.

It also hits a few compromise 'sweet spots'. It's just fast enough for the apparent wind sailing game to work, but slow enough to suit enough venues and to cope with round the cans reasonably.
It's not hugely weight sensitive. Heavier gives you more power, but offset by more drag from the transom.

The continued success of the 400 is probably partly due to there being no obvious rival?

Slowly tweaking OD rules is a difficult art. The most important thing in class racing is to have other boats that give you a good race. Critical mass is everything.
But being a small class does not mean that class is not a success. If you get tight racing in a local fleet or two, or even a hotly contested 15 boat nationals, those people might well be getting better sport than the also-rans in the more popular fleets.It's easy to ruin that by selling a dozen new boats that are faster.

Probably timing has something to do with it. Are the key people in the fleet well placed to upgrade to a new boat? Are there enough improvers/club sailors looking to buy their old boats?


Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 31 Aug 17 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by fab100

Originally posted by PeterG

 Better deck profiles
... can mean the boat comes up dry as opposed to swamped, after a capsize. That can be a huge performance driver; you can sail the boat harder, nearer the edge, safe in the knowledge that a mistake does not necessarily mean, effectively, race-over.

Compare the loss in capsizing a laser (so what) with an Ent (might as well go home, unless they are all doing it)

Sure, I'm not arguing that changes that succeed do not make boats faster. But they may also tend to make them more enjoyable to sail at the same time. Coming up dry(ish) after capsize doesn't just make you get round the track faster, it makes the whole experience better, more likely one you would choose to repeat.

I suspect that changes that both make boats faster and make sailing them more fun are likely to be the one most likely to succeed.


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Peter
Ex Cont 707
Ex Laser 189635
DY 59


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 2:47pm
Originally posted by JimC

On the other hand if a boat is fundamentally rubbish, who's going to put the effort in?

Although it took years of debate and I dare say hard work, to get the latest MkII sail out for the Laser and the XD kits in the not-so dim and distant past.  

Which comes down to the old adage, that the boat is really not quite as important as the people who sail them to make a success out things.

I dare say the Phantom's resurgence 10 or so years ago wasn't just down to Vandercraft, the sailmakers and ultimately Ovington.  It was about a group of guys who go together and created the right vibe for them and that vibe was infectious.  

I wasn't overly keen on my Phantom - it had too much string for my tastes and the performance drop off a musto skiff emphasised its (and my) performance weakenesses - but you can't fault the class association and people in it.  

Ironically I'd probably get another one if I were lake sailing regularly, especially handicap racing only - I'd just de-clutter it somewhat from how I had mine back then.    


Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 3:17pm
Didn't you go totally batsh*t mental with spinlocks everywhere, it was in your west coast custom period (have you still got the tats?) There are four bit's of string to pull and only one or two you really worry about during the race even I don't get that flummoxed, you need to pile in and get the new model T Phantom any colour you like as long as it's black with red dyneema trap wires.

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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 3:25pm
You can win club races with just mainsheet and kicker on a Phantom. Next most important strings are forestay and outhaul. I've never use more than that even in Open meetings.


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 3:40pm
Originally posted by rb_stretch

You can win club races with just mainsheet and kicker on a Phantom. Next most important strings are forestay and outhaul. I've never use more than that even in Open meetings.

yep - I went down the everything adjustable, tapered and on elastic take-ups..... I wish I'd read your post above in 2008! LOL  It was a tweaker's dream... and quick reality check that I'm no tweaker.  

Cunningham and kicker only... I don't even pretend to understand them really, but I do acknowledge when pulling them on makes life easier and a boat point higher.


Posted By: Gordon 1430
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 3:46pm
Sorry but you definitely need fore stay as soon as it blows you ease to rake, far more important than Cunningham or even outhaul.
You generally sail with an eased foot anyway.


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Gordon
Phantom 1430


Posted By: maxibuddah
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 4:05pm
We did use to laugh at your "improvements" jimbo. Never quite knew why you needed an iPod feature though...I would agree with RB and Gordon. Most phantoms now seen to have string for the sake of there being string. Almost trying to say "look how great my boat is" when there was no necessity. Mine was as simple as I could get it to be and I did OK in it

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Everything I say is my opinion, honest


Posted By: turnturtle
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 4:05pm
Originally posted by Gordon 1430

Sorry but you definitely need fore stay as soon as it blows you ease to rake, far more important than Cunningham or even outhaul.
You generally sail with an eased foot anyway.

Thumbs Up  you guys would certainly know better.... adjustable shrouds and lowers though, are they 'vital'?


Posted By: Phil_1193
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 5:51pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Thumbs Up  you guys would certainly know better.... adjustable shrouds and lowers though, are they 'vital'?


Adjustable shrouds, other than taking the pin out and moving it up and down, are not class legal, so definatley not vital.

As for lowers on the go, that will split the fleet 50/50



Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 01 Sep 17 at 6:30pm
Originally posted by turnturtle


Originally posted by Gordon 1430

Sorry but you definitely need
fore stay as soon as it blows you ease to rake, far more important than Cunningham or even outhaul.
You generally sail with an eased foot anyway.

Thumbs Up  you guys would certainly know better.... adjustable shrouds and lowers though, are they 'vital'?


Nah, I introduced my guy to letting go the forestay downwind, (he did the opposite) so they all go slack and you can get the boom right out and almost fully run by the lee. I did trash a couple Lasers in fine style on the run which convinced him, then again I'm a bit lighter.

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