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mangoman View Drop Down
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Posts: 69 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mangoman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: kicker attachment
    Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 4:54pm
What difference does it make if the lower end of the kicker is attached to the mast or a fitting on the hull ?
I'm thinking that if it is attached to the mast and then the mast is raked back, the boom will remain in the same relative position to the mast whereas if attached to the hull, as the mast comes back the boom stays in the same position and the kicker needs to be tightened.
Pros and cons of each system ?
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 5:26pm
Another, maybe bigger issue is the relative position compared to the gooseneck pivot and the masthead. If the pivot of the kicker fitting is aft of the axis of the sail the kicker will tend to centreline the boom. With a deck stepped mast it may be that you get a better location on the hull. You also need to consider the angle that the kicker makes with the boom: the lower the attachment then the more effective the leech control will be whilst minmising the forward load into the mast, but equally the more it will foul a partially raised daggerboard.
I don't believe there's any right answer, each boat and even sailor will have their own best compromise.
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Posts: 478 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iiitick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 6:35pm
Of course if Laser had a modern rig it would have paired controls. The end of the kicker would be a pulley hauled in by a line running from  deck pulley to deck pulley and cleated on both sides. 

Did I describe that ok?
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davidyacht View Drop Down
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Posts: 1345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 7:09pm
If it is attached to the hull, say the mast step, it will be faster to derig when towing
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 12:18am
Another point to watch is that if you attach your kicker to the mast step/hull, there is a horizontal thrust load forwardly on the mast foot via boom, gooseneck and lower mast).  Not an issue if your mast foot is an old metal one, but I've seen the plastic ones on 2k's wrecked by even the modest loads used in that class.

A marginal advantage of the arrangement is that the line of action is somewhat more favourable in terms of pulling down on the boom compared to thrusting it forwards to bend the mast, which is maybe useful in a class like the 2k with no lower shrouds or strut.

But I'd be more concerned by the point Jim raises about the kicker tightening as the boom moves off the centreline - the opposite of what you generally want when changing course from a beat to a reach, although I suppose it might have a slim advantage if you are playing the main on the beat.  I know a Snipe champion who has his crew pull on the kicker to bend the mast as he eases the main in gusts.
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 12:39pm
In one of my more wild genius madman moments, I reasoned that, the gnav thing would be better controlled from the boom on the EPS for precisely the reason that as the boom sheets out the rope tensions the kicker more as it is fixed to the deck, exactly counter what you need to happen sheeting out especially when dozy falls in the boat as he nods off. If the booms goes right forward like on downwind legs lee sailing it can over tension it again counter to what you require.

So if the kicker pulley system were all terminated on the boom itself none of that would happen, it all seemed to clear to me at the time, not sure why I didn't go through with it. (It was part of the plans I needed to make to gybe the boom around the front like proper sailing so maybe because that couldn't happen because of the mainsheet problems I didn't go through with it but maybe I should.)

Edited by iGRF - 24 Oct 14 at 12:40pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 3:52pm
Originally posted by iGRF

So if the kicker pulley system were all terminated on the boom itself none of that would happen,

It gets more complicated than that, not least because the limitations of fittings often mean that the actual point where the gear pivots isn't as close to the mast as one might like and you can still get the centering effect. And then if the line turns round a block at the base of the mast and then heads aft to a cleat that too has a centering effect.
I've seen deck stepped masts arranged on an overhang so that the attachment for the kicker on the hull below is further forward than it could be on a mast tube...
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Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by iGRF

So if the kicker pulley system were all terminated on the boom itself none of that would happen,

It gets more complicated than that, not least because the limitations of fittings often mean that the actual point where the gear pivots isn't as close to the mast as one might like and you can still get the centering effect. And then if the line turns round a block at the base of the mast and then heads aft to a cleat that too has a centering effect.
I've seen deck stepped masts arranged on an overhang so that the attachment for the kicker on the hull below is further forward than it could be on a mast tube...


Well the beauty of the EPS rig system and those low lowers, everything pivots together, mast, boom gnav, but it would only work right if the cascade were totally boom mounted, so in order for it to function I guess you'd need to run the kicker sheet in parallel to the mainsheet, kind of side by side, I had this kite board block system idea in my mind which also runs two control lines side by side, I need to think about it a bit more, it could actually work and not be such a harebrained idea after all, it does cure a couple of issues I have.

Edited by iGRF - 24 Oct 14 at 4:12pm
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 8:31pm
Don't the Buzz and Iso have the kicker coming to the mainsheet block too? They certainly used to, anyway.
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Posts: 1810 		Post Options Post Options   Quote craiggo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 8:48pm
A lot of Furballs do as well.
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