kicker attachment
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11728
Printed Date: 10 Jul 25 at 11:18am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: kicker attachment
Posted By: mangoman
Subject: kicker attachment
Date Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 4:54pm
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What difference does it make if the lower end of the kicker is attached to the mast or a fitting on the hull ? I'm thinking that if it is attached to the mast and then the mast is raked back, the boom will remain in the same relative position to the mast whereas if attached to the hull, as the mast comes back the boom stays in the same position and the kicker needs to be tightened. Pros and cons of each system ? |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 5:26pm
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Another, maybe bigger issue is the relative position compared to the gooseneck pivot and the masthead. If the pivot of the kicker fitting is aft of the axis of the sail the kicker will tend to centreline the boom. With a deck stepped mast it may be that you get a better location on the hull. You also need to consider the angle that the kicker makes with the boom: the lower the attachment then the more effective the leech control will be whilst minmising the forward load into the mast, but equally the more it will foul a partially raised daggerboard.
I don't believe there's any right answer, each boat and even sailor will have their own best compromise. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 6:35pm
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Of course if Laser had a modern rig it would have paired controls. The end of the kicker would be a pulley hauled in by a line running from deck pulley to deck pulley and cleated on both sides. Did I describe that ok?
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Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 21 Oct 14 at 7:09pm
| If it is attached to the hull, say the mast step, it will be faster to derig when towing |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 12:18am
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Another point to watch is that if you attach your kicker to the mast step/hull, there is a horizontal thrust load forwardly on the mast foot via boom, gooseneck and lower mast). Not an issue if your mast foot is an old metal one, but I've seen the plastic ones on 2k's wrecked by even the modest loads used in that class. A marginal advantage of the arrangement is that the line of action is somewhat more favourable in terms of pulling down on the boom compared to thrusting it forwards to bend the mast, which is maybe useful in a class like the 2k with no lower shrouds or strut. But I'd be more concerned by the point Jim raises about the kicker tightening as the boom moves off the centreline - the opposite of what you generally want when changing course from a beat to a reach, although I suppose it might have a slim advantage if you are playing the main on the beat. I know a Snipe champion who has his crew pull on the kicker to bend the mast as he eases the main in gusts. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 12:39pm
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In one of my more wild genius madman moments, I reasoned that, the gnav thing would be better controlled from the boom on the EPS for precisely the reason that as the boom sheets out the rope tensions the kicker more as it is fixed to the deck, exactly counter what you need to happen sheeting out especially when dozy falls in the boat as he nods off. If the booms goes right forward like on downwind legs lee sailing it can over tension it again counter to what you require.
So if the kicker pulley system were all terminated on the boom itself none of that would happen, it all seemed to clear to me at the time, not sure why I didn't go through with it. (It was part of the plans I needed to make to gybe the boom around the front like proper sailing so maybe because that couldn't happen because of the mainsheet problems I didn't go through with it but maybe I should.) ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 3:52pm
It gets more complicated than that, not least because the limitations of fittings often mean that the actual point where the gear pivots isn't as close to the mast as one might like and you can still get the centering effect. And then if the line turns round a block at the base of the mast and then heads aft to a cleat that too has a centering effect. I've seen deck stepped masts arranged on an overhang so that the attachment for the kicker on the hull below is further forward than it could be on a mast tube... |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 24 Oct 14 at 4:12pm
Well the beauty of the EPS rig system and those low lowers, everything pivots together, mast, boom gnav, but it would only work right if the cascade were totally boom mounted, so in order for it to function I guess you'd need to run the kicker sheet in parallel to the mainsheet, kind of side by side, I had this kite board block system idea in my mind which also runs two control lines side by side, I need to think about it a bit more, it could actually work and not be such a harebrained idea after all, it does cure a couple of issues I have. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 8:31pm
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Don't the Buzz and Iso have the kicker coming to the mainsheet block too? They certainly used to, anyway.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 8:48pm
| A lot of Furballs do as well. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 9:00pm
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Hang on GRF, when you say you will run the kicker alongside the main sheet, do you mean down from the boom in the same place? What happens when you sheet out? Doesn't the kicker stay tight? I must be seeing this wrong!
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 9:50pm
| To be honest i don't really see the problem on a singlehander with paired controls fitted in the conventional way. Sit on the side deck and pull it on with your in front hand. On the Tasar with its rotating mast their are a pair of blocks on the base of it's deck stepped mast but the system is operated by the crew who can reach it when hiked. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 27 Oct 14 at 9:52pm
It would have to be using something like the Laser cleating block so when you sheet out, the kicker would still remain cleated. The Alto kicker is just below the main sheet block, but that obviously wouldn't achieve what I was looking for to pivot the boom right round the front as i was when I envisioned it. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 8:46am
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Ignoring the boat becoming massively unstable when the boom is swinging round, the only way to manage the controls is surely to keep them attached to the mast, and not coming back in the boat at all. It is the main sheet I'm worried about in that scenario, though?
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 10:43am
| Sounds like e recipe for getting hung to me. How about a lateen sail with no boom and a continuous sheet? |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 2:58pm
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I have read this over and over and over and I still can't see what the problem is with a normal kicker and a mainsail that gybes like every other boat in the world!? You don't see the guys in the olympics having trouble because of it, you don't even see the real down the pan sailors at some dodgy middle of nowhere pond having any trouble, so GRF, why are you with all your expertise and baffling knowledge about wind shifts and fitness having a problem!?
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 3:12pm
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A world class sailor can manage perfectly happily with a lot of stuff, but it doesn't mean it can't be improved. Variations in leech tension and a self centring effect from the kicker loads are genuine phenomena, and they are things that good design has to minimise. Its always worth thinking about whether there's something better than what's done now, and, hard as it is to believe sometimes, this is theoretically a dinghy development thread.
Cleating the kicking strap on the boom would indeed be one way of getting round some of the self centring issues. I'm not sure I can imagine liking it, but when I was young off the boom sheeting was a hopelessly old fashioned setup that I'd seen only on hire cruisers on the Norfolk Broads, and I wouldn't have been able to imagine wanting it on my dinghies... |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 3:21pm
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there is, perhaps, a simple solution i) remove the sheets, fit a wishbone boom with spongy grip all the way around the mast & foot of the sail ii) apply some pro-grip liberrally to the cockpit and side decks iii) stand up, take the boom in both hands, control the angle of the sail by moving your body and arms iv) decide the hull and foils are a bit too large, re-shape them, lets say for example, like a race board v) re-cut the sail, perhaps to a more raceboard friendly pattern vi) leave dinghy development forever and go back to plank sailing  |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 5:01pm
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I guess that is roughly what happened all those years ago - doesn't mean it can't happen again in a different direction. I'm with Jim here - without discussions, the real gems can be missed. However, I still think the strong wind gybing problem is unlikely to be solved by taking the boom forwards - I've done that by accident a few times, and the results haven't been pretty. For the kicker to stop doing what Jim describes, many singlehanded classes now bring the blocks in front of the mast, so the turning point is the centre of things, not in front. Seems a simple enough solution for what we currently need, if not for the future of sailing - the fullerautomatic dinghy. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 7:05pm
Being young, dumb and probably not as full of what you should be or you wouldn't be dinghy sailing, I shall take pity and explain your collective problem. Gybing the way you do at the moment is very inefficient when it comes to getting the flow re attached not to mention all the banging and crashing that goes on, so I have just wondered how it could be improved, I've been puzzling ever since before that v2 episode, and then the EPS came along and does offer a tempting pathway with its rotating mast and below the boom shrouds, several times I've messed with it, but I'm stumped with the mainsheet transfer. I've considered round the front travellers, double sided main sheets, but it simply doesn't compute yet, but where there's a will. Why do it? Why not. I'm bored when not actually on the water. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 8:45pm
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The answer is to have a drum on the mast foot, and a drum of a different diameter (to get the gearing) in the middle of the boat. The mast foot and collar would have to be low friction to allow the rig to rotate very freely. The mast drum and mainsheet drum would be connected by a line, belt or chain. From the top of the drum would be a continuous line which you could run around the boat and this would be your mainsheet.
Its doable but removing all the friction would be tricky. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 8:51pm
Blinding! 
Thanks craiggo, that could work, belt drive would do it, like off a Harley. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 9:15pm
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But......but....I'm going down wind on me lake and the wind shifts a bit so I sheet out and sail by the lee. It all goes a bit far so I decide to gybe. I head up wind a little bit and the boat gybes. As the boom goes over I give a hearty tug on the mainsheet and the boat accelerates. How can that be improved? Most gybes seem to keep the boat moving or create acceleration. If you are going to push the sail forward you will lose power from the sail. As you haul back in the angle of the sail will be all wrong in relation to the wind, death roll, and it will have to come back a long way before it works and gains drive and stability. I realise that my faculties are deteriorating with age but of all the ideas worth contemplating is this one worth it?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 10:25pm
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Nothing to stop you gybing conventionally, duck gybing as we proper sailors call it.
All though with my new drum system you wouldn't have to head up then have that nice sickening crash as it comes across. You would just wind it round the front and get that acceleration as you sheet in on the new side. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: davidyacht
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 10:33pm
| Graeme, I think you should try it ... Fit a Go Pro and share with us, |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 10:36pm
| You'll need a hell of a lot of mechanical advantage as the centre of effort is well behind the point of rotation but as with David I'd love to see you try it! |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 28 Oct 14 at 11:03pm
| I was going to say that......but......boom fixed to mast, drum round mast with continuous mainsheet round drum. Now this is the cunning bit......a clutch! You can de-clutch and let the mast spin inside the drum. |
Posted By: laser193713
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 8:24am
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The big problem will come when the mast rotates forward and you begin to sheet on again after the windsurf style gybe. Now, in a windsurfer the mast cants around and the board stays relatively flat, the heeling moment of the sail isn't transferred to the board in the same way, not to the same degree anyway. If you have ever sailed a laser and let your mainsheet go right out and sailed heavily by the lee you will know it is a lot of fun but incredibly wobbly. I think this is where you will come unstuck, not the making it work bit, that's easy, people gybe A sails round the front all the time when its windy in big boats, two sheets is the answer there. Big boats are already doing outside gybes, so really this is nothing new. So to put it simply, you will "death roll" when you sheet in on the new side, you will get wet, your hideously expensive new toy will upset you and will be placed on the bonfire with the v-twin, if that makes it past bonfire night this year!
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Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 8:44am
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Exactly, laser'713.
Easy to try, Grumph. Just put a very long mainsheet on one windy day and let the sail right out and bring it in again a few times. You don't actually have to gybe to experience the effect. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 8:53am
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Are you talking about the foiling V Twin? Why would that go on the bonfire? With it's revolutionary new invention of the inflatable mast head foil that will prevent it turning turtle and boost the power off the sail in the same way end plate effect helps the foot.
As to the hideously expensive EPS and it's gybing properties, I already get wet on windy lee running into fast gybes, precisely because of the flow reversal that has to occur. The difference will be that by the time the sail is on the new tack, so will the boat be, as against what can happen at the moment if the wind, apparent or direction change, happen as you gybe and the new heading is all wrong for the freshly crashed sail, it's over you go. The way I'm proposing the take up on the new tack, like windsurfing, is progressive, it's exactly for windy conditions I need to do something else, gybing 9.4 sq mtrs with only 67 kgs to counter that crash gybe is very very difficult. I've spent many an hour postulating as to why boats are faster running by the lee and why they rock about so much, indeed I had a couple of hours to consider it running dead downwind running the Icon jib by the lee to enforce the thinking, so I do know what goes wrong and why. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 9:32am
You're thinking dinghy style... If you reason windsurf style the board gybes under the rig and the rig only comes back online once the board is planing on the new tack, so you don't let go the sheet so to speak, you actually sheet in going into the turn. So, what would happen with a dinghy would be the difficulty sheeting into a bear off, then there being enough sea/water room for the boom to pass the initial phase of its travel without grounding down, that's the bit that is more concerning. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 10:10am
| Where is the problem powering up after a gybe? The boat is moving forward, it gybes, you sheet in and 'catch' the wind on the new tack. If it is windy you let the sail flap then sheet in when you feel safe. The trick is to get power immediately by controlling things. Like I don't. How is hauling yards of mainsheet in to pull the boom back from in front of the boat better or safer? |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 11:30am
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I think one big issue is that IMHO we are not really sheeting in after a gybe on a board, in effect. We tend to pivot the entire rig around a point about mid way down the boom as we sheet on, IMHO. We pull the mast a significant way to windward and then let the mast and luff fall away, using our back arm as the pivot point. Rather than pulling the back hand in while loaded to get the right sheeting angle, we are essentially letting the front hand out in order to get the right sheeting angle. In boats we can't pull the whole rig into the turn in this way and therefore we don't have the option of gybing this way. This is just my own belief, from re-playing board gybes in my head and also from the fact that when I am coaching people in longboard high-wind gybes, I really stress that the idea is not to sheet the back hand in, but to let the front hand out. Sheeting the back hand in creates the same sort of problem that Laser 173XXX identified. Sheeting in a dinghy makes it even harder and MM has identified the issue and the way that Grumpf could test it. I've tested this numerous times by losing the mainsheet knot in a Laser and trying to sheet back in with the rig streaming over the bow after I've re-lead the mainsheet.  It's a complete pain.Yes, you can turn a dinghy so far that there's not much force in the main after the gybe - we even used to do it on offshore racers. But as iiitick noted, you can do that with a conventional setup too.
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Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 11:52am
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Equally daft idea.....Boat sailing downwind displacement sailing and pushing all that water aside wasting energy to do it. How about storing some of that energy (say a tube with a turbine in it passing through the boat), then farting it back out again at moments of tension like approaching a windless mark or a race to the line. Energy stored by inflating bags. Anybody else as bored as me?
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 12:44pm
Er getting the boat back up and getting yourself into it.. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: Blue One
Date Posted: 29 Oct 14 at 5:01pm
 I do think your tube idea is the best one that's come to light on this thread.
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