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HannahJ View Drop Down
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Posts: 861 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mark rounding
    Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 2:34pm
Probably an easy answer, but I don't have a rule book on me.

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Thanks
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:23pm
Mark-Room: Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her
proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include
room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of
the boat required to give mark-room.
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Posts: 2415 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:28pm

Originally posted by HannahJ

Probably an easy answer, but I don't have a rule book on me.

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Thanks

 

Two questions there Hannah!

 

1, As above you have mark room to make a rounding and that includes getting to close hauled.

2, If the boat below can sail closer, you're stuffed and need to tack away! 
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 4:44pm
Hannah

Scooby beat me to it but I agree. The mark rounding is
complete when you are both sailing your proper course. If
the inside windward boat's proper course isn't as high as
the outside one then she will have to tack away.
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Posts: 861 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 8:24pm
Then take into account that the windward/inside boat was in the process of hardening up, and she was given no time to anything other than watch the little idiots behind getting closer and nudging her transom... outside boat tacked off after this which is I presume why they hit the inside boat. Surely a simple call of windward would have displayed their intention to tack? In which case the inside boat of course would have got out of the way and covered them up the beat...
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 8:38pm
Hannah, perhaps I misinterpreted your initial post. I had
assumed that the lead boat was outside/LW and the overlap
was from the inside/WW. From what your post above says I
know take it that the inside boat was leading into the mark
and that the outside boat hardened up too quickly during
the rounding. Is that right?
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Posts: 861 		Post Options Post Options   Quote HannahJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 10:33pm
Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. The inside boat was leading, the outside boat rounded up faster than her and sailed up the back of her transom... before tacking off. Given that this was about 1 or 2 boat lengths from the mark (having gone round) should the inside boat still be in the right and allowed to get clear first? (And then as windward boat tack off or get out of the way)
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Posts: 682 		Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jun 09 at 11:45pm
Well, in that case, the outside boat is still required to
give the inside boat mark room. This continues until they
are on their respective proper courses to the next mark.

So, if the outside boat rounds up into the inside boat,
she has not given enough mark room. If the overlap is
broken as the roundings of both boats begin, then
(assuming there was an entitlement to mark room in the
first case) the outside boat must continue to give mark
room. This includes not rear-ending the "inside boat".
Rule 18 covers it all and Rule 18.5 exonerates the inside
boat if she strikes the mark while attempting to avoid
contact while being squeezed.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 12:24am

Originally posted by HannahJ

For how far round the mark (leeward mark, hardening up onto the beat) does an outside boat have to give an inside boat water?

As I see it it's long enough to make a seamanship rounding; however if the inside boat comes close hauled a few seconds later than the outside boat (for whatever reason, eg. simply has worse pointing ability), and the outside boat knocks the transom, who is in the wrong?

Originally posted by HannahJ

Yes, sorry, that's what I meant. The inside boat was leading, the outside boat rounded up faster than her and sailed up the back of her transom... before tacking off. Given that this was about 1 or 2 boat lengths from the mark (having gone round) should the inside boat still be in the right and allowed to get clear first? (And then as windward boat tack off or get out of the way)

Once the boat entitled to mark-room is at the mark, 'seamanlike' is no longer relevant:  the boat is entitled to 'mark-room to sail her proper course at the mark'.

Mark-room to sail a proper course at a leeward mark includes room to harden on at the optimum rate of turn and rate of in-sheeting, that is, you're not obliged to slam the  boat up to close hauled or above, but if you muff your harden-on, drop the sheet or whatever, then you're taking more room than you're entitled to and your exoneration under rule 18.5 switches off.

BUT, once you are 'one or two lengths from the mark (having gone round)', you are no longer 'at the mark', and you have had all the room you were entitled to.  An outside leeward boat has every right to push you up at least to their proper course, and if they do not have a rule 17 proper course obligation (which may have been established before the mark), they can push you up as high as they like.  They are bound by rule 16 to give you room to keep clear.  If they are clear astern, then they are bound to keep clear under rule 12.

To get an understanding of how mark-room applies, look at the 'round-about' analogy in Dick Rose's paper here

http://www.yachting.org.au/site/yachting/ayf/downloads/Techn ical/RaceManagement/Comparison%20of%20Old%20and%20New%20Sect ion%20C%20Rules.pdf?MenuID=Racing%5FRules%2F21002%2F0%2F

 
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jun 09 at 12:44am

Originally posted by English Dave

Well, in that case, the outside boat is still required to give the inside boat mark room. This continues until they are on their respective proper courses to the next mark..

I don't think this is the right way to say it.

The language of the new rules and cases no longer refers to a rounding being 'complete'.

A boat entering the zone with mark-room remains entitled to it while ever she is in the zone (unless she switches it off by passing head to wind).

But if she is not 'sailing to the mark' or 'at the mark', for example, is past the mark, her mark-room entitlement has no 'content', we might say mark-room = zero.  Her entitlement does not switch off, and may again become meaningful if, for example, in light/tidal conditions she drifts back to the mark.

Whether one or both boats are sailing their proper or best courses after they have passed the mark has no bearing on mark-room.

Originally posted by English Dave

So, if the outside boat rounds up into the inside boat, she has not given enough mark room..

As long as the inside boat is at the mark.  If past the mark rules 11 and 16 will apply.

Originally posted by English Dave

 If the overlap is broken as the roundings of both boats begin, then (assuming there was an entitlement to mark room in the first case) the outside boat must continue to give mark room. This includes not rear-ending the "inside boat"..

Not rear-ending the inside boat is a simple rule 12.

Originally posted by English Dave

Rule 18.5 exonerates the inside boat if she strikes the mark while attempting to avoid contact while being squeezed.

Rule 18.5 only gives exoneration from Section A right of way rules and, at the mark from rules 15 and 16, giving room rules.  Rule 18.5 does NOT exonerate a boat entitled to mark-room from breaking rule 31 Touching a Mark.  Any exoneration from rule 31 has to be given under rule 64.1(c).



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