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Adults protesting children

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john.d.knight View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote john.d.knight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Adults protesting children
    Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 1:14pm
I was talking to a friend last night whos 14 yr old had been protested by an adult during club sailing. I don't know the ins and outs of the case but the child was in the protest hearing by himself and he lost the case. It doesn't seem fair that 4 adults can accuse and judge the child without some sort of representation or help for the child, it just seemed that this situation would be so intimidating for most children that it doesn't appear fair. Is this covered by any particular rules or if children are racing with adults they have to be treated like adults?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 1:40pm

I was protested by 2 x 14 year olds and lost. I am now scarred for life. Did they gat an advantage because they were youngsters - I doubt it in this case but I could see it happen.

At our club we use the RYA racing charter which is a much less formal way of dealing with incidents.

Either way I think representation should be allowed for everyone.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote 422797 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 2:09pm
I think protests need to be taken less personally. Although the child in question lost this protest hearing at his sailing club, surely that is valuable protest room time that may help him win a protest when it really matters whether that is at another club race, a nationals or worlds later in life.

I really hate the can't protest because it is a club race attitude.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote KnightMare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 2:14pm

Yeah but you have to work out if the kid even knew the rules at all... If its normal club racing not all of the adults know the rules let alone kids that are there jsut having fun...

I know some squad type kids seem to know everything and can get the adults taken out but if its someones first time unless they have had some kind of coahcing they could be well out there in the right and still loose because they dont know what it is they have to prove the ohter boat did/didnt do.
And its not the jurys job to coax the correct information out of them, if the facts seem clear to them then is good.

I think that in the case of kids who are just generaly out there hvaing a good time and get protested the clubs aught to get a knowledgable sailor (preferably impartial) to just talk the incident through with the kid and say well this is what the rule says/means then at least they go in with some form of even footing...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 3:30pm

Originally posted by john.d.knight

Is this covered by any particular rules or if children are racing with adults they have to be treated like adults?

I doubt if anyone would have objected if the child had someone to help or represent them. AC skippers bring a lawyer or two along......

But really, protests are part of the sport. Consider it as an educational experience.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SX Girl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by KnightMare

Yeah but you have to work out if the kid even knew the rules at all... If its normal club racing not all of the adults know the rules let alone kids that are there jsut having fun...

surely this is the best way for them to learn the rules then, whilst taking part in club racing with people they know protesting them and judging them? if they don't learn the rules at club level they never will.

Originally posted by KnightMare

I think that in the case of kids who are just generaly out there hvaing a good time and get protested the clubs aught to get a knowledgable sailor (preferably impartial) to just talk the incident through with the kid and say well this is what the rule says/means then at least they go in with some form of even footing...

I suspect in most clubs (certainly ours) the Protest committee is made up of knowledgeable impartial sailors from the club who do exactly that. and if the child is competent enough to take part in club racing surely it's about time they started learning the rules?

Originally posted by 422797

I think protests need to be taken less personally. Although the child in question lost this protest hearing at his sailing club, surely that is valuable protest room time that may help him win a protest when it really matters whether that is at another club race, a nationals or worlds later in life.

I really hate the can't protest because it is a club race attitude.

Totally agree. A youngster was protested for excessive pumping recently in our club.(He was the only one who made it anywhere against the tide!) . All his mates hung about at the club to support him and wait for the verdict. When he lost the protest, all the youngsters in club learned that excessive pumping was not acceptable

The protest achieved it's purpose  - good lesson learned for all of them.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 4:03pm

Originally posted by john.d.knight

It doesn't seem fair that 4 adults can accuse and judge the child without some sort of representation or help for the child.

There was only one protester ... the other 3 were the protest committee who would have been impartial so not really that intimidating.

I am guessing from your post that the parent of this child is not happy ???

I'd say it's good experience.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote mike ellis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 4:14pm
this sounds interesting, im not actual sure what would happen if i tried to protest someone in a club race at hill head, i dont even know if we have protest forms. a challenge for the weekend methinks.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote KnightMare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 5:30pm

Originally posted by SX GIRL

KnightMare wrote:

I think that in the case of kids who are just generaly out there hvaing a good time and get protested the clubs aught to get a knowledgable sailor (preferably impartial) to just talk the incident through with the kid and say well this is what the rule says/means then at least they go in with some form of even footing...

I suspect in most clubs (certainly ours) the Protest committee is made up of knowledgeable impartial sailors from the club who do exactly that. and if the child is competent enough to take part in club racing surely it's about time they started learning the rules?

Yeah im not saying that the comities arent made up of people like that but i mean before they go into the protest, that way the protest can actual be had like a normal protest with out the comitty having to chime in and say "no but..."

I know eveyone should be learning the rules if they are sailing but for a kid (anyone infact) its more important to learn how to sail (and sail well) than to sit and learn rules which seem much more like school than sailing. give them the rules book and u will have lost the interest of all but the most dedicated and will have confused all but the cleverest... some times the best way is to learn through experience but does that mean that each learner has to be disqualifed the same number of times as there are rules to break....

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Post Options Post Options   Quote SX Girl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 07 at 5:43pm
Originally posted by KnightMare

 give them the rules book and u will have lost the interest of all but the most dedicated and will have confused all but the cleverest... some times the best way is to learn through experience

That's what i meant  

Learning through experience is best yes, and rules and protests should be part of that experience in my view.

I've never sat down and read the rule book fully (except when I can't sleep) but have a handle on the most used ones by racing with other people and being in situations where they were needed.

Originally posted by KnightMare

but does that mean that each learner has to be disqualifed the same number of times as there are rules to break....

I hope not, and as stated earlier, most "Experienced" club racers don't know them all anyway. I was just saying that sometimes it's healthy to have a protest so that the situation is clarified for all, including the children in the fleet.

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