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simple as port starboard?

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thenewpete View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 4:14pm

ahhh cheers dave. that makes alot of sense.

im sure that wil cause some grief. probably not the best thing to go into a protest room with, especially as the plaintiff, because as with alot of rules, its very wishy-washy,  i mean how much room do you need? how do you prove how much room you didnt have. unless of course you hit the bouy, but then you are still require to do turns (unless you may hit the bouy within the class rules) as its not covered under exoneration.

i think ill suggest to them when i call for water next time, that i require enough room to sail my proper course. it will get people thinking along the right lines.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 10:50pm

Originally posted by English Dave


As I understand it, once the entitlement for Mark Room
has been established the Outside boat should give enough
room for the inside one to sail a proper course..)

Two phases:  from the edge of the zone to the mark:  IW is only entitled to room to sail her direct course:  at the mark, IW is entitled to sail her proper course to get fastest to the next mark.

Originally posted by English Dave


 If both boats are really tight on the mark that may mean the
outside boat bearing off a little. If the outside boat
does not she has not given Mark Room and has then
committed a foul..)

And according to Bryan Willis, OL needs to be steering a course sufficiently outside the mark to allow IW room to round it (2xBmax?), at the instant the first boat reaches the zone.

Originally posted by English Dave

 However, for the inside boat to "take"
room by bearing off into the outside boat breaks Rule 11
and Rule 14 and has committed a foul herself..)

But once she is at  the mark, as long as she is taking 'mark-room to which she is entitled' she shall be exonerated under rule 18.5 for breaking rule 11, and, as long as contact does cause damage or injury, shall not be penalised under rule 14 (rule 14(b)).

I think that once at the mark, IW could bear away and 'flare' a little to create more room, but there may be a dispute about whether she was at or to the mark, and whether she bore away too far.

Originally posted by English Dave


So the Inside boats best option is to Protest based on
the fact that she was given insufficient mark room. If
she take the "law" into her own hands by creating room
then she will end up DSQ..)

If there's no contact with something then a 'room' protest is hard to win.

Originally posted by English Dave

This rule will keep Protest Committees busy for sure..)

Why?  there is no game change.

Originally posted by English Dave

As an asymmetric Cat sailor I need a fair amount of Mark
Room as I cannot turn on a sixpence without stalling.
Lasers don't need so much perhaps. But how much room
would a Laser sailor anticipate I would need based on
his/her sailing experiences if we were racing in a club
handicap? .)

No-one is interested in how much room he 'anticipates' you need (unless you are getting into really arcane stuff about rule 14(a)).  What counts is how much room the protest committee decided you needed to sail your proper course at the mark.  If the PC are all laser sailors, then you might be stuck.

Originally posted by English Dave


(Actually for club racing it is an unwritten rule that
we -cats- just go wide on leeward marks. It saves time
and makes us less prone to attack by "Topper Mums" back on
shore.)

And you don't like being attacked by Topper Mums because .....?

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 11:02pm

Originally posted by thenewpete

how do you prove how much room you didnt have. unless of course you hit the bouy, but then you are still require to do turns (unless you may hit the bouy within the class rules) as its not covered under exoneration.

If a boat does not give your mark-room to which you are entitled and forces you to hit the mark you are entitled to exoneration under rule 64.1(c).

Difference between 18.5 and 64.1(c) exoneration is that for 64.1(c), you have to be compelled to break a rule (like rule 31), while for 18.5, you just have to be taking room to which you are entitled without compulsion:  a pretty fine shade of meaning, but OL might argue that although he did not give your enough room to sail your proper course, he didn't push you up so far that he forced you to hit the mark.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote thenewpete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 8:47am

Hmmm this gets more and more confusing.

My interpretations after sieving through books, is that you are entitled enough room when you are at the mark, to make a proper course rounding. for arguments sake wide in, tight out, which say in a laser requires 10feet of room. You cannot take anymore than these ten feet, otherwise you will have broken rule 18.4. you are required to avoid contact, so you cannot "barge" yourself some room, i.e. if the outside boat gives you only 6 foot, all you can do is take the 6 foot and protest. if contact occurs in that 6 foot you are exonerated as long as it was without intention.

I believe you can squeeze the outside boat out enough to make a proper course rounding in this example, 10 feet. but if the outside boat is having none of it, you cannot make contact with him as you are not avoiding contact rule 14a

the rule 14, Avoiding Contact, reads

a boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible. However, a right-of-way boat or one entitled room or mark-room

(a) need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear or giving room or mark-room

(b) shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage or injury.

basically you can bear away or luff up, as long as the other outside boat is bearing away also i.e. their bow is pointing away from the mark, but if they are not playing ball, when you bear away to gain the room you are entitled, you cannot hit them as this is not avoiding contact and is a breach of rule 14(a).

But does Rule 14(b) not contradict rule 14(a)?? If you cannot be penalised, if you are right of way boat/entitled to mark-room, unless you cause damage or injury. so surely in a bullet proof boat like a pico rule 14(a) doesnt exist (unless heaven forbid, you injure someone) and you can barge yourself some room without being penalised?

god this is so confusing/grey its making my brain hurt thinking about it

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English Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 9:58am

With all due respect to Brass, my answer still stands. The OL boat has to give mark room or face protest, likewise the IW cannot barge to make room.

Topper Mums are scary if you kill their children. Don't know why.

Back on subject, I was trying to think how this would work for both IW and OL boats tactically. IW wants mark room in order to make a fast rounding and keep her as windward boat after the mark. OL does not want to end up underneath IW after the mark as she will stay buried for the next upwind leg. So does it make any sense for the OL to squeeze the IW at the mark?

I don't think so. Surely (and I accept this ignores all the other boats on the race track) OL needs to bear off big style in order to fall clear behind IW and then make a very tight rounding and perhaps get upwind of IW after the mark. It's an accepted practice that if you enter the zone clear ahead but with another boat up yr chuff you slow up as much as possible to force the other boat to the outside and thus take your dirty air on the next leg. So I see no benefit in OL trying to luff or squeze the IW round the mark. It slows IW's rounding but also slows OL by the same action. And leaves OL still to leeward which is a poor place to be for the next leg. The only time it might work for OL is when the overlap is minimal and OL manages to end up on IW's lee bow after the mark, forcing the IW to tack off.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 11:09am

The tactical opportunity occurs for any boats behind.

Given that OL should/could be giving more mark room than under the old rules when IW was not entitled, there is a greater likelihood of a gap for Clear astern (CA) to sail into in a safe windward position.

For OL the decision as to whether to round outside and ahead in safe leeward/lee bow position or to slow and come inside is probably shifted further in favour of slow and inside since the former will be harder to obtain.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 1:10pm

Hmm,

But, Clear Astern has no rounding rights (because of the 3 length zone), so as OL rounds up, CA is now caught a) without rights to room for the mark and b) most likely windward boat.

If you can't argue that you had mark room, then you don't have rights to round the mark, so CA has to head up, and either hit OL or the mark... Avoidng contact with another boat is probably more important, so it's penalty turn time.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 2:19pm

You've not exactly understood what I meant.  At leeward marks there is often an opportunity for CA to turn inside OL, ending up in one of 3 positions:

CA of IW and CA of OL (OL and IW remain overlapped) but in a safe windward position with respect to OL.  OL suffers more in the downwind, as opposed to lee bow, dirty air from IW, and can not luff.  CA is in a passing lane.

CA of IW and overlapped with OL (OL and IW remain overlapped).  Presence of IW limits ability of OL to close the gap.  As above - CA is in a passing lane.

CA of IW and overlapped with OL (OL and IW are not overlapped).  CA is no longer "protected" by IW, and there is greater risk of OL shutting the door as described in your post.  However often OL will struggle to do so without serious detriment to her own position.

Under the new rules OL is likely to be further from the mark, increasing the oportunities for CA in each of the examples above.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb 09 at 10:12pm

Originally posted by English Dave

Back on subject, I was trying to think how this would work for both IW and OL boats tactically. IW wants mark room in order to make a fast rounding and keep her as windward boat after the mark. OL does not want to end up underneath IW after the mark as she will stay buried for the next upwind leg. So does it make any sense for the OL to squeeze the IW at the mark?

Good tactical application of the rule Dave and Sarge.

OL pushing close will work when OL is well advanced on IW and has a chance of coming away in a lee bow position.

Otherwise the rule will 'play' when OL is a little bit clueless:  improperly tries to close the door, rounds up, just thinks luffing is a good idea and so on.

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English Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Feb 09 at 9:11am

OL should never have let herself get in that situation in any case. She should have luffed much higher than the mark well in advance of the zone, then born off hard just before the zone to break overlap. This assumes the overlap had been ongoing for some time. If not and IW had just established overlap just before the zone then OL should have seen her coming and, again, driven high to avoid being rolled, either taking IW with her or forcing her to the outside where she would have been buried as the new OL.

This only makes any sense if the two boats are of similar handicap. If there is a vast difference in speed then let the faster boat go and get on with your own racing. No point in an Oppie match-racing a 49er.

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