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simple as port starboard? |
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dics 
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 05 Oct 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 317 |
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 Topic: simple as port starboard?Posted: 16 Feb 09 at 1:48pm |
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I quick and easy question.
I was on staboard approachhing the leeward mark (starboard rounding) when a twin wire assymetric thing came in on port I called starboard and he replied he had water due to as he had an overlap at the zone. I gave water and he dropped and gybed in the zone, we all made our nice mark roundings.
Even though I was debious about his rules interptation and whether he even had an overlap (it was hard to tell due to the angles we both were laying the mark) I still gave room in as it was there in order for me to get a good mark rounding.
My questions are:
If he did have an overlap would he be entitled to room?
And if it is unceratin whether an overlap was established what should have happened?
Giving the fact that he was reaching at a great number of knots and he would not be able to change course at a snap without all hell breaking lose it was obviously best to let him go anyway.
Cheers
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Jamesd
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 01 Feb 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 377 |
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Posted: 16 Feb 09 at 2:15pm |
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Yes, as long as he had an overlap he had rights to room at the mark. remember with assymetrics they sail the angles rather than more dead downwind of conventional boats, so the overlap angles are far greater, meaning that nearly half the race track (the guys that went left down the run mainly) owe him water. draw the situation on a bit of paper and draw a line coming off the transom to show the overlap and you will see its quite obvious that he has an overlap. you can effectively ignore the port starboard rule within the 3 (or whatever size the s.i's state) zone. its only really an issue at the windward mark and even then its not completely true, as port boats do have some rights. |
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Jamesd
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 01 Feb 08 Online Status: Offline Posts: 377 |
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Posted: 16 Feb 09 at 2:22pm |
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Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. However, it does not apply (a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward, (b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the mark for one but not both of them is to tack, (c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or (d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19 applies. The leeward mark doesnt satisfy any of the above exceptions so therefore you have to consider the inside boat as having rights, even if the inside poat is on port and not starboard. |
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alstorer
Really should get out more 
Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
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Posted: 16 Feb 09 at 6:35pm |
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He is entitled to mark room, however consensus seems to be that he's not entitled to do a "tactical" rounding.
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-_
Al |
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Rockhopper
Really should get out more
Joined: 16 Nov 07 Location: Eastry Online Status: Offline Posts: 642 |
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Posted: 16 Feb 09 at 7:56pm |
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i had almost the same thing a couple of years ago i was on starboard coming into the two boat lenghs when a boat came in asked for water and gybed right in front of me with me having not a lot of choice but to luff up avoid a collision therefore becoming the inside boat.i tried to protest the other boat on grounds that it was unsporting conduct ie gybing right in front of me giving no where to go apart from hitting him or going above him even though i had a witness i still lost cause i should have given him room. umm it was intresting a vareo against a rs 400 andy |
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Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest.
2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
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jeffers
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 7:46am |
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Had a similar situation to this a few of years back at the Fireball Nationals. It was light winds so running dead downwnd was sooooooo slow that everyone was 'sailing the angles' most of the fleet went right, we went left.
As we approached the mark on Starboard we started calling for water to be me by many surprised shout of 'no you have not etc...' When i replied we had an overlap and had so for most of the leg due to the different angles they grudingly gave way but not without shout of protest.... We all had a chat off the water and they agreed we made a smart move and were correct (we overtook half the fleet). I believe now that Mark Room does entitle you to make a 'racing' rounding (ie wide in tight out). Remember the Overlap line is the line across your transom which now starts at 3boat lengths (unless your club has varied this). So he could be a long way away and have an overlap, whether or not he can do anything with it is another matter! I would say from your description that he was in the right, the only question mark would be the precise angles and establishing if he has the overlap when it was required. |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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alstorer
Really should get out more
Joined: 02 Aug 07 Location: Cambridge Online Status: Offline Posts: 2899 |
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Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 8:33am |
I don't, not from reading things such as this, which would indicate that you would only get room for a "racing" rounding if you'd otherwise by the RoW boat anyway (ie if, thanks to the course layout, you were on starboard AND inside boat. |
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-_
Al |
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thenewpete
Newbie 
Joined: 31 Jan 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 24 |
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Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 11:01am |
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This is quite intresting about the how much room. reading this http://members.home.nl/jmspijkerman/BLOGFiles/MarkRoomUK2o.p df at the bootom of the two pages. I cannot see (within the rrs) why a windward boat cannot sail their proper course around the mark. it may just be me but the way im interpreting it is that if two boats are on port, overlapped and rounding a bouy to port, the inside boat is to windward, and she cannot bear away to sail the course she would like to sail (proper course) as she will break rule 11. and according to the article she is not exonerated even though the rules say she is exonerated from rules of part A (in which rule 11 is written) if the outside boat is not giving her mark room. the definition of mark room is: Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room. ignoring the second sentence it clearly states that you can sail your proper course which is the course you would sail in the abscence of other boats, i.e. out wide and in tight for a leeward mark. im bloody confused. i went to a rules seminar and we went through mark roundings. and the international jury did state that you are now entitled to make a racing rounding. i dont see why the article states that you cannot if you are windward boat. am i missing something blatently obvious here? |
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English Dave
Really should get out more
Joined: 10 Aug 06 Location: Northern Ireland Online Status: Offline Posts: 682 |
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Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 12:20pm |
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Pete
As I understand it, once the entitlement for Mark Room has been established the Outside boat should give enough room for the inside one to sail a proper course. If both boats are really tight on the mark that may mean the outside boat bearing off a little. If the outside boat does not she has not given Mark Room and has then committed a foul. However, for the inside boat to "take" room by bearing off into the outside boat breaks Rule 11 and Rule 14 and has committed a foul herself. So the Inside boats best option is to Protest based on the fact that she was given insufficient mark room. If she take the "law" into her own hands by creating room then she will end up DSQ. This rule will keep Protest Committees busy for sure. As an asymmetric Cat sailor I need a fair amount of Mark Room as I cannot turn on a sixpence without stalling. Lasers don't need so much perhaps. But how much room would a Laser sailor anticipate I would need based on his/her sailing experiences if we were racing in a club handicap? (Actually for club racing it is an unwritten rule that we -cats- just go wide on leeward marks. It saves time and makes us less prone to attack by "Topper Mums" back on shore.) Edited by English Dave |
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dics
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 05 Oct 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 317 |
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Posted: 17 Feb 09 at 2:54pm |
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Guys, thanks for all the replies. Reading the rules is one thing but remembering them is another. I am eagerly waiting for my new copy of racing rules in pratice to drop on the door mat.
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