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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Spy photos
    Posted: 11 Jan 09 at 8:55pm
Is it a rotating wing, over rotating wing, or just rotating?
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blaze720 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 09 at 10:00pm

It is an over-rotating section, but you can pre-set exactly how much over-rotation you want - it is a set and forget system unless conditions change drastically.  98 x 42mm Eliptical derived from NS14 type sections that were imported.  So far so good but we have more development ahead.  But this was Halo's first competitive outing and we are very very satisfied with the way it went.  We would have been happy to start anywhere really provided we learnt something about its relative performance - which we did in buckets. (However from 926 ? - in my dreams QMSC....;-)   Halo is however much faster than the Blaze, the rig points exceptionally high, is extremely tolerant to sheeting angles and seems to be amazingly efficient and easy to use with no real vices found yet. (But we will be changing the standing rigging a bit to stiffen up the bottom 1/3rd).  In summary -  No fuss just a lot less drag and a lot more go.      

We are planning a production section if the trials continue to go well.  This will be made available to the market beyond Halo -  I even got a couple of private enquiries from other classes after the 'Bloody Cold'     

Blaze720    

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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 09 at 6:30pm
Just thinking you would have to factor in the increased efficiency of the over rotating wing into your sail area calculations.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 09 at 8:06pm

Yes - but difficult to factor for this against 'regular' masts.  Nearest over-rotational masts on a dinghy are on Tasars in this country and they are also comparable with camber induced rigs I would guess.

Dan Holman kindly sent me a copy of the PN prediction spreadsheet he uses today.  Substituted in sail area, leverage and helm weight changes etc for Halo against his standard Blaze data and it suggests around 1020 but that has no 'efficiency' adjustment of the sort required. 

Not going to speculate on Halo's eventual PN but it will get below that figure for sure (for the target average 100kg+ -guys), and better helms may get considerably more speed around the course out of it than the average one.  The intention however was not speed to the exclusion of other objectives, nice though extra speed always is.  The objective is to end up with a refined modern  alternative class for larger helms.  To succeed it has to be an excellent all-rounder in any breeze and above all be fun....   

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 09 at 8:13pm
Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Just thinking you would have to factor in the increased efficiency of the over rotating wing into your sail area calculations.

That may not be as much as you'd think. When they work they can work very well, but they can be complete cows to tune and gust response can be problematic. They are allowed in a lot more classes than use them and I can think of three development classes that have tried and abandoned them. The NS14s are pretty much unique in persisting with them. Its intresting, for instance, that when Bethwaite proposed a mk2 Tasar it included a pole rig. I have a lot of time for the idea, but also a appreciation of the difficulties.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 09 at 8:23pm
I suspect that over-rotating masts make a lot more sense (as do full width battens) on una rigs than they do on rigs which have jibs to re-attach the lee-side flow over the main. That said, the hull drag curve being what it is, the extra thrust will soon be absorbed by extra drag when the boat goes just a little quicker.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blaze720 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 09 at 9:51pm

Agree with both Jim's and Medway Maniacs comments - These rigs have enormous potential but they have to work across a wide wind range. 

The Tasar does it pretty well but that design is now 30+ years old, rather heavy and the more recent NS ones from where it came in the 70's are much more efficient.  Our own fall back plan is to use a carbon RS 600 type rig with a very similar sail if we do end up binning the over-rotational wing option.  That is pretty much off the shelf if we want it.  However we decided to give this one a go initially as it costs little to try at this stage and we will keep running trials for as long as necessary.  But if an over-rotational wing mast proves too tender or impractical to turn into a commercial and class standard spar we do have a strong plan B !. 

I suspect commercial objectives also for the proposed Tasar 2 pole mast - a NS14 section would be known to them, is well understood and not regarded as difficult.   

As has been said wing sections do make even more sence with una rigs as we don't have a jib to help things along.  However for Halo it was decided to go for a lightly battened sail as 'hard' full length battens limit the option to 'feather' the sail in stronger winds (ie lightly collapse the front 1/3rd or so when overpowered).  Full length 'hard' battening and high winds seems to lead to an unfortunate choice - it is either 'full power' or 'difficult power plus handling problems'.  Boards get round this problem by having multiple sails or varying sizes and aim to have just enough area to keep within the ability of the rider to keep within the 'full power' option. 

Halo has always been planned with a large sail in mind so we wanted the enhanced ability to feather (depower) it in a simple manner even if it costs a slight bit of theoretical benefit the rest of the time.  I think this compromise also makes it far less 'tweaky' and so easier to use.  Furthermore it seems much more flexible than camber induced rigs for another reason - we can rapidly and simply adjust the amount of 'over-rotation' allowed to suit the prevailing conditions.  A single line and cleat limits the amount the mast can rotate in relation to the boom.  Higher wind = less rotation, lower winds = higher rotation. 

Fore and aft these sections are stiff but side to side they are relatively very whippy. (100mm x 42mm).  Less rotation as in highter wind setting presents more of the sideways profile and therefore greater flexing and lower chord (rig depth). 

The opposite is true as well : lower winds = set higher rotation = greater chord in play + stiffer section of mast in play.  In other words a deeper rig on a stiffer mast.    

So much for theory though - it has to be proven out there of course.

Mike L.   

     

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Jan 09 at 8:42am

Of course, all catamarans use them as well...

Over the last 40 years a huge number of masts have been tried in the NS14 class, both over-rotating and fixed.  The section that the Halo uses is by far and away the most popular and successful mast in the class, and is more modern than the squareback tasar section.  In fact it is very much like a scaled down A Class or Tornado section.  As Mike says, they are very stiff fore and aft, and very flexible sideways.  This means that you can tune the flex of the mast to the gustiness of the prevailing wind by varying the amount of rotation.  In general the mast is pointed into the apparent wind, but if it is gusty you can rotate it less and the top of the mast will bend off.  Another advantage of this is that in normal set up (pointing into the wind) the mast is slightly felxible on a beat, and much stiffer on a reach.  This gives the sail much more power on a reach than you can get with a fixed mast, which if it is allowed to flex upwind will also flex on a reach.  The reduced drag of the over rotating mast also allows the boat to point higher on a beat and creates less heeling moment.  And it isn't heavy, my aluminium section is lighter (per metre) than the Proctor section used on 200s, Fireballs etc.

Incidentally, some of the carbon wing masts used on the A Class cats are actually more flexible in the fore-aft (long) direction than the sideways (narrow) direction, due to the fibre layup.  At least, this is what I am told.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 09 at 4:21pm
Interesting stuff...


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Jan 09 at 4:50pm
Looks like a cunning means of adding a slat effect into the kite?  Slats in foils greatly increase lift, so should add performance.  Not sure how strong/reliable or easy to trim it would be though?
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