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scrimbosdad View Drop Down
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Posts: 2 		Post Options Post Options   Quote scrimbosdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: New Rule 87
    Posted: 27 Nov 08 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by jlecou

I"2.7     Replica Sails: If a competitor wishes to take part in a Club series and/or cup race in a Single Manufacturer One Design (SMOD) with a non manufacturer provided sail, that competitor must obtain the prior approval of the relevant Class Captain (or, in the case of the Class Captain, the Sailing Secretary) to use such a sail.  RRS 87 shall not apply."

 

Is this adequate?  Can a club's SI's can overturn a RRS rule that prevents that Club's SI's overturning a Class Association rule?

 
As i read the RRS you cannot do this.  Rule 86.1 (a) does not allow local SIs to change defined rules, including those in part 7 which is where rule 87 sits. Perhaps the idea of a separate non-class fleet racing alongside class legal boats is best.  Thanks for all the replies to this - it does feel as though commercial interests have influenced this rule.
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ColPrice2002 View Drop Down
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Posts: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ColPrice2002 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 08 at 8:27pm

When I sailed a one design, we always acknowledged that the one sailmaker to the class would be cheaper to the members than having several sailmakers - each developing their own ideas (and trying them out with the top helms - who then had subsidised sails).

The attraction of the one design was that with the hulls, spars and sails as near identical as possible, the deciding factor was the crew's ability.

The class assocition played an active role in keeping the sailmaker's quality acceptable (variation & longlevity).

Now I'm sailing a one-design hull - with the option of a mast/sail maker to suit the helm weight (Solo), and I don't see that the sails are that expensive.

The other boat we have (Merlin) has a number of top sailmekers, and these all seem competitive - maybe the competion is good.

If you aren't happy with the class sailmaker, (quality or cost) then the members have to push their association.

The decision is really up to the owners - if you want to sail a XXX dinghy and race, then should you comply with the class rules - or not?

Would you consider a non-measured hull to be "in-class"? - how about one that didn't measure?

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bert View Drop Down
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Posts: 584 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Nov 08 at 11:40pm

Please bear in mind that this thread started life talking about replica sails which would measure as official sails if they had the "proper manufacturers stamp" & weather or not to allow them,

Not the cheating that can occur if a person has a mindset that allows alterations to the hull/weights of the kind of cheating that you would not tell ANYONE about.

I for one find the price of laser sails £430 plus batterns OR replica sails £205 with batterns to be a no brainer unless you are completing in the opens,Considering that the replicas do not allow extra speed/pointing/downwind/control over the orginals,they are what they say on the "tin" replicas!.

I also think that a lot of clubs could find a larger group of sailors that are on the "other side" if & when they apply this rule,Afteral quite a few clubs have a relaxed attude to this for club racing already & this allows good club racing & FUN FOR ALL.

So I brought a rooster 8.1 complete with a mast extender/sail/batterns /class assocation membership all delivered to my door for £350 so £430 for a 30 year old designed sail which has sold over 190,000 hulls & sails on new boats plus all the replacment sails,I think that the R&D has been repayed by now & a bit of price adjustment MIGHT be in order.Then perhaps rule 87 would never have been written.

 
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 7:46am
The easiet way round this is to have a 'Laser' class and a 'Laser Type class'. Given that the sails in question are pretty much identical and there is no performance advantage or disadvatage then just sail the 2 classes together.

The definition of the 'Laser type' class is something along the lines of:

'Uses all the class rules as the Laser class but with the exception that a replica or training sail may be used with prior approval from the class captain/sailing committee (whichever you feel most appropriate).'

You can create a local class whenever you like and give it whatever rules you like, this effectively circumvents Rule 87 and keeps you racing within the RRS.

Do bear in mind that all equipment on the Laser is controlled by the builder and not by the class. The class can make recommendations but if the builder says no then there is not much that can be done!

I agree with the other posts that removing lead from you boat/using wider racks thatn you are allowed is blatant cheating as this is done for performance gains and not for purely economic reasons.
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 8:21am
Originally posted by jeffers

... not for purely economic reasons.

To play devil's advocate, bearing in mind that the only way to get a boost in boat speed from a Laser is to buy new sails regularly, is there really that much of a difference?
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 10:11am
Originally posted by JimC

To play devil's advocate, bearing in mind that the only way to get a boost in boat speed from a Laser is to buy new sails regularly, is there really that much of a difference?


Yes, replica sails can be obtained for as little as £150 (InSails) whereas a genuine article sail is £430.

I can afford and justify spending £150 every 2 years (as this is how long my replica will last as it is makde of a better quality of cloth) but I cannot afford £430 for a genuine article every year (because lets face it after 1 years racing the genuine sails is stretched to hell). IMO more people can afford to spend £150 than £430...

Simple maths during these credit crunch times.....
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Chew my RS View Drop Down
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Posts: 790 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chew my RS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 2:13pm

But, to continue the deveil's advocate theme: you are buying new (class illegal) sails for performance gain. You could save even more money by just keeping your old sail for 5 years, but you (probably) wouldn't win.

I guess Laser will reduce the price of their sails if they think they can make more money by doing so, otherwise they won't.

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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Dec 08 at 5:31pm
The difference is that most club sailors can justify spendong that amount of money every other year but cannot justify spending £430 every year which is what they would need to do to remain competitive (or have the psychological effect of a crispy new sail).

The good news is that Laser Performance are working on a new sail, the bad news is that it wont be released until after the 2012 olympics. At least it gives them time to get it right (but we are drifiting off the original topic here).
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec 08 at 3:33pm

I would think if its a handicap race, then you should be able to use anything, but if you are not carrying the lead, or have wider wings, then it may be reasonable to adjust your handicap. If any performance advantage is likely, or becomes apparent, then it should be discussed openly.

If its a class race then it's a grey area. Another, more often broken class rule is the requirement to be  a member of the association.

Aren't there boats which race under local rules for club events and association rules for national/open events?

I think if you are using a replica sail and get chucked out of a club laser series, you have probably chosen the wrong club. Laser class at an open regatta? depends on the level? Laser open? official sail
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec 08 at 12:05pm

Originally posted by ColPrice2002

When I sailed a one design, we always acknowledged that the one sailmaker to the class would be cheaper to the members than having several sailmakers - each developing their own ideas (and trying them out with the top helms - who then had subsidised sails).

At one time I was involved in running a SMOD class, we researched opening to multiple sailmakers and it definitely was the case that we could get cheaper sails by restricting the class to a single sailmaker, thereby guaranteeing that sailmaker an annual volume of sales. Win-win.

However this assumes that the class can put price pressure on the sailmaker, which clearly isn't happening in the Laser's case. There has to be the threat that the class can take its business elsewhere.

 
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