High points experience

At my club (Frensham), there is some discussion about using the high point scoring for our season series (21 races in the summer). A
Perceived advantages - probably more realistic positions for people who don't quite sail the 50% of races. Disadvantages - in light winds with few starters, may encourage more people not to sail (or same at other end of wind range).

Does anyone have experience of using high points for long club series?

Thanks in advance

BTW, I have a potentially cunning plan for an alternater scoring system - would need fiendish computer program. Goes something like

1. Find the person who sailed the 2nd highest number of races.
2. asses them, the person who sailed the most and anybody else who sailed the same number as the 2nd guy.
3. Score everybody in that group against everyone else 1 on 1 - see who won the most races when then raced between the 2 of them. You might allow a small number of discards to allow for rig failure etc (say 10%). If they tie, include the discards. If they still tie, use the relative positions (like high or low points at that stage). If they still tie, last race. If people never raced each other, the series cannot be scored!
4. You know have a series of A beat B, B beat C relationships. Most of the times these should give an obvious transitive order A> B>C, but if there is some sort of loop. use high point scoring between just those people etc. You should now have a ranking of that group - keep it.
5. Now consider the group who sailed the next fewest number of races. Apply steps 3/4 to that group (without considering the people already ranked). That gives you a ranking for that group.
6 For each person in that group from the highest ranked, compare to the previous group from the top - use the 1 on 1 comparison technique to determine whether the new person goes above or below someone from the existing group. Once you have found someone they go above (or reached the bottom of the existing list), you have found their position in the merged list.
7 now take the next person in the to be merged list and start the process in 6 with each person in the existing list below the person who has just been merged in.
8 repeat 5-6-7 for each group who have sailed less races until you cannot do a comparison - at which point that whole group cannot be ranked.

Disadvantage - needs a program
Advantage - represents the way we think about our oppponents - I beat him more times than he beat me. You can be sure that the guy above you and below you are in the right places considering all the races you both competed. Also, number of other sailor in any given race makes almost no difference unlike low/high points - it is a simple 1 v 1 match up most of the time

Any thoughts? And yes, I am a software person!

Edited by pondscum

Author	Message Share Topic Printable Version Delicious Digg Facebook Furl Google MySpace Newsvine reddit StumbleUpon Translate Twitter Windows Live Yahoo Bookmarks Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic
pondscum Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 06 Nov 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 99	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondscum Report Post Quote Reply Topic: High points experience Posted: 07 Oct 08 at 8:49pm
	At my club (Frensham), there is some discussion about using the high point scoring for our season series (21 races in the summer). A Perceived advantages - probably more realistic positions for people who don't quite sail the 50% of races. Disadvantages - in light winds with few starters, may encourage more people not to sail (or same at other end of wind range). Does anyone have experience of using high points for long club series? Thanks in advance BTW, I have a potentially cunning plan for an alternater scoring system - would need fiendish computer program. Goes something like 1. Find the person who sailed the 2nd highest number of races. 2. asses them, the person who sailed the most and anybody else who sailed the same number as the 2nd guy. 3. Score everybody in that group against everyone else 1 on 1 - see who won the most races when then raced between the 2 of them. You might allow a small number of discards to allow for rig failure etc (say 10%). If they tie, include the discards. If they still tie, use the relative positions (like high or low points at that stage). If they still tie, last race. If people never raced each other, the series cannot be scored! 4. You know have a series of A beat B, B beat C relationships. Most of the times these should give an obvious transitive order A> B>C, but if there is some sort of loop. use high point scoring between just those people etc. You should now have a ranking of that group - keep it. 5. Now consider the group who sailed the next fewest number of races. Apply steps 3/4 to that group (without considering the people already ranked). That gives you a ranking for that group. 6 For each person in that group from the highest ranked, compare to the previous group from the top - use the 1 on 1 comparison technique to determine whether the new person goes above or below someone from the existing group. Once you have found someone they go above (or reached the bottom of the existing list), you have found their position in the merged list. 7 now take the next person in the to be merged list and start the process in 6 with each person in the existing list below the person who has just been merged in. 8 repeat 5-6-7 for each group who have sailed less races until you cannot do a comparison - at which point that whole group cannot be ranked. Disadvantage - needs a program Advantage - represents the way we think about our oppponents - I beat him more times than he beat me. You can be sure that the guy above you and below you are in the right places considering all the races you both competed. Also, number of other sailor in any given race makes almost no difference unlike low/high points - it is a simple 1 v 1 match up most of the time Any thoughts? And yes, I am a software person! Edited by pondscum

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 07 Oct 08 at 9:02pm
	In my experience the sequence of events goes like this:- 1) Have clever idea for much fairer series scoring system 2) Draft email to Sailing scretary proposing big improvement 3) Spend an evening writing a spreadsheet to calculate the numbers 4) Calculate previous two Wednesday evening series results against selection of scoring systems including your new wonder one. 5) Observe that the results are very nearly the same no matter which system is used, 6) Sulkily delete draft email without sending. The only scoring system I've come across which makes much difference is one called "ostrobogolous" which is designed to keep a series alive as long as possible. When I did some analysis I discovered it does this by reducing the weighting of the first few races so much that it makes no difference at all whether you win, come last, or simply stay home at the beginning of the series! Edited by JimC

pondscum Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Groupie Joined: 06 Nov 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 99	Post Options Post Reply Quote pondscum Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 08 Oct 08 at 8:33pm
	Observe that the results are very nearly the same no matter which system is used actually one of the drivers for this is I am beating my most regular opponent because I am picking up points when he doesn't race and/or when we match up I am ahead on points when I get it together. he is more consistent and is just winning the 1 v1.

ChrisJ Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Far too distracted from work Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337	Post Options Post Reply Quote ChrisJ Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 9:21pm
	It is VERY hard to get a scoring system that rewards regular turnouts, but also encourages people towards the end of the series. If you don't do this, then only those sailing at the beginning of the series will be racing at the end, and its very hard to get new people out onto the water. You would do better to look at what you are trying to achieve (more boats, reward good performance, reward regular turnouts, encourage beginners, encourage more good people who can only race at the club a few times) and then keep the normal low-scoring simple system, but also award special prizes (published in advance) to encourage your desired behaviour. We have used: "best results from 3 of last 5 races", "Fleet Captains regular turn out award", High score from top 4 or 5 races thru the series, gold / silver fleet, splitting the series into 2, so people can see prizes half way through the summer and be encouraged for the second half. All have "worked", None have dramatically altered the numbers of boats racing!

laser4000 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 02 Aug 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 589	Post Options Post Reply Quote laser4000 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 16 Oct 08 at 10:19pm
	Pondscum Slight aside but have you tried using personal handicaps in some of your events...these have worked very well at Burghfield for their wednesday night series and I think has contributed to the increased turnout, which I think is what you might be trying to achieve. Therre is an explanation of how it works,