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far canal View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		Post Options Post Options   Quote far canal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing rules
    Posted: 27 Apr 06 at 8:37pm

frayed you guys still missing the point , once the fact one boat running by the lee and by definition is on same tack as beating boat forget the windward leeward side relative to boom.

The bit From Definition  rules 2005 - 2008 " A boats leeward side is the side that is or , when head to wind , was away from the wind " excerpt from definition .(the bit Gordon doesn't quote above)

 

then takes over ,

 

ie boat running however deep when looking over the side AWAY FROM THE WIND has the beating boat on this side ie the leeward side , so by rule ( ) whatever has to keep clear.

 

 

 

If its good enough for RYA thats good enough for me .

 

Admit its a bit of a confusing process to get through .

 
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 06 at 7:51am

Far Canal: I'm baffled why you think the RYA's words clarify anything one way or the other. Read the entire definition of windward/leeward. You are quoting the wrong sentence. It is the bit starting "however" that applies in this situation, as the wording makes clear.

Sargesail: you are correct to say neither boat in Gordon's diagram is clear astern. Therefore, in the definitions of the rules, they are overlapped, although in the "common sense" use of the word they are not. Read the definition of clear astern/clear ahead/overlap. They are overlapped, on the same tack and both have the other to windward. Therefore the rules just say they mustn't hit each other but are otherwise unforthcoming on who should keep clear.

It is really annoying that the PDF documents you can download from the ISAF site have disabled copy/paste, so I can't paste the relevant definitions here.

 
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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 06 at 12:28pm

Stefan

Have you tried clicking on the I on the Acrobat toolbar (next to the arrow)?  This allows you to highlight and copy text.

 
Garry

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www.cuckoos.eclipse.co.uk
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 06 at 12:57pm

Thanks for the suggestion Garry. In fact the problem seemed to be using an old version of Acrobat.

 

Leeward and Windward A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she

is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee

or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies.

The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap,

the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the

windward boat.

 

Clear Astern and Clear Ahead; Overlap One boat is clear astern of another

when her hull and equipment in normal position are behind a line abeam from

the aftermost point of the other boat’s hull and equipment in normal position.

The other boat is clear ahead. They overlap when neither is clear astern. However,

they also overlap when a boat between them overlaps both. These terms do not

apply to boats on opposite tacks unless rule 18 applies

 
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far canal View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		Post Options Post Options   Quote far canal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 06 at 1:42pm

all i can say is far canal

i'm off for a race !

 

 



Edited by far canal
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 06 at 5:12pm

Just got back from a week on the water in Britanny (not much sailing as the boat developed a mechanical problem after a nocturnal argument with a mooring line!)

Nice to see that this thread is still running. Even nicer to see that Stefan agrees with me!

It is worth expressing some caution when reading RYA interpretations. They are sometimes in advance or somewhat at a tangent with ISAF interpretations. As a French qualified judge and an Irish qualified race officer I regard RYA rulings as interesting view points - but only ISAF rulings apply worldwide.

 
Gordon
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 06 at 7:31pm

Gordon: I agree with you in the sense that you are correct in the situation you describe and it is an interesting point you have raised.

However I think it is unlikely that the original and fairly innocuous question actually related to the distinctly esoteric scenario we have been debating. If this situation in which two boats on collision course had equal rights were a common one in practice, the rules would have long since been fixed. Either that or we'd have a lot of broken boats.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Apr 06 at 8:00pm

Unlikely situations test the rules to the limits...and in this case the rules do provide a solution.

As for the reality of the situation - in handicap racing when a close-winded hiking dinghy (a Snipe) helmed by a mad luffer meets a Laser coming off a wave...

...or in RC racing when the rig can take some time to gybe...

Gordon
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 06 at 7:00am

Originally posted by gordon

...and in this case the rules do provide a solution.

The solution being that they are required not to collide, but with no indication of whose responsibility it is to do so or how? Not really much of a solution, is it? Or have I misunderstood? 
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 May 06 at 2:14pm

Nevertheless it is a solution. Rule 14 is a rule that applies in all situations, even one in which both boats can claim that they are the right of way boat.  Intelligent men these rule-writers.

Gordon
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