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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Sailing rules
    Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 12:32pm
If you are close hauled do you not have right of way over a boat that is not close hauled? I always though this was the case, it may not be defined explicitly in the RRS but it may be definied in ColRegs which is what you should fall back on to should the RRS not cover the situation (loosely covered by Rule 14 stating you must avoid a collision wherever possible).

Were the close hauled boat to change course to avoid the boat coming downwind then they would have to ensure that they give the other boat sufficient time to react (right of way boat changing course, rule 16?)

Regards,

Paul
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 12:46pm

Would somebody please lend "far canal" a rule book. He might then be able to read the following definition ..."When sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack  overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. the other is the windward boat."

In the sketch both boats have the other on their windward side, and they are both overlapped on the same tack.

(Italics refer to RRS definitions)

If "far canal" could then turn to Rule 11 he would read "When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall  keep clear  of a leeward boat."

In this case neither boat can be windward boat as they do not have a boat on the side on which their mainsail lies. Both are leeward boats Rule 11 does not apply.

 

To quote " It's flippin' simple".

The writer of the rules used a specific definition of windward and leeward which is slightly different from the accepted nautical usage. Thes makes the setling of disputes about boats relative positions much simpler. It also, in this very specific instance, introduces a paradox that causes few problems (except apparently of comprehansion) because both boats are bound by Rule 14 Avoiding Contact.

You may wish to change this rule. In which case - good luck in both drafting a more adequate text then in getting it voted by ISAF!

 

Gordon 
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tack'ho View Drop Down
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Posts: 1100 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tack'ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 1:04pm
Amen
I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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dics View Drop Down
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Posts: 317 		Post Options Post Options   Quote dics Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 1:14pm
Thanks for your comments. I was really unsure of any rights I would have in such as situation and still unsure (!) although Gordons reply has sent me off in the right place to look in the rule book. In this sitiation I was aware of the beating boat and I gave room - it was the natural thing to do. It was only when ashore I started pondering the question.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 1:51pm

If you are close hauled do you not have right of way over a boat that is not close hauled?

This was true in the version of the Rules agreed  in 1929 by the IYRU, the NAYRU and the New York Yacht Club. However there have been a few changes since then. The present version of the rules have been in use, with minor variations since 1997.

The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS) do not apply between boats that are sailing in or near the racing area and intend torace, are rcing or have been racing. They are not a "fall-back" set of rules when boats do not knoçw which Racing Rule applies.

In the same way the Highway Code does not apply when racing Karts or Formula One cars.

Gordon
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catmandoo View Drop Down
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Posts: 545 		Post Options Post Options   Quote catmandoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 3:59pm

Similar scenario happens regularly in radio control laser racing with port roundings on win lee course (no spreader mark ) but other way round , boats running down by the lee on starboard and boats beating up on starboard , both are each others windward boats by definitions above and both again must keep clear.

In ignorance there are shouts of starboard from running boat , then "winward boat" "ya loony"  from beating boat "and I'm on strbd too!" running boat apologises and gives ways or smacks into tother !

When it seems both should give the other room  from above .

Gets pretty hectic with 15 to 20 boats all in this situation .

 

Spreader mark will help , but not usually enough room.

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by catmandoo
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Feb 06 at 4:59pm
If you're really concerned you can always use the RYA rule query service.

I think some of the more aggressive posters here need to calm down a bit.
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far canal View Drop Down
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Posts: 110 		Post Options Post Options   Quote far canal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 06 at 1:46pm

Confirmation from rya.

 

Answer:

The definition of Leeward and Windward has two elements. 

The first part explains the terms in relation to a single boat, in order to amplify the definition of Tack, Starboard or Port, for the purposes of rules 10, 16 and 18, by identifying which tack she is on. 

The second element explains the terms as they affect the relationship between two or more boats, thus serving rule 11 and the definition Keep Clear.

Having identified that both boats are on the same tack by reference to their leeward sides, you must now consider their relationship to each other in the way you always used to.

 

 

The rules aren't as daft as you think ! this scenario is covered .

 

From Definition  rules 2005 - 2008 " A boats leeward side is the side that is or , when head to wind , was away from the wind " excerpt from definition .(the bit Gordon doesn't quote above)

So the boat running by the lee in this scenario has the boat boat beating on its leeward side and has to give way ,the boat beating has its leeward side AWAY from the running boat so running boat is to windward ,  as we all (mostly) thought in the first place .

 

Common sense reigns

 

the second part of the definition regarding the side of boat and boom position merely clarifys that a boat running by the lee is on whatever tack that the boom position dictates , not wind direction , the first bit of definition takes precedence as boats will be on same tack.

 

you can pull this apart as much as you like (whoever) but I'm happy that this shows that windward boat keeps clear and winward boat is one nearest the wind wherever her boom is !

PS. Gordon next time you quote a definition , quote it in intirety or at least say you missed the first bit out.



Edited by far canal
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Stefan Lloyd View Drop Down
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Posts: 1599 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 06 at 4:56pm

I'm probably going to regret responding to this but here goes.

The original question was:

A boat on “conventional” port tack sailing by-the-lee meets another boat on port beating to windward. The beating boat hails “Windward boat keep clear!”. Do any of the rules, rule in favour of the boat sailing by-the-lee?

If the boat is sailing by the lee by a typical 10 degrees or so for an unstayed rig, then in order for the boats to be on a collision course, the beating boat will be approaching from the starboard side of the running boat (running boat's view). The "rules" and "common-sense" definitions of windward and leeward agree and the running boat must keep clear. I think we all agree on that. The fact that the running boat is by the lee makes no difference. Port/starboard is defined by the position of the main, not the direction of the wind.

Gordon then came up with another scenario. Here the by-the-lee boat is running so deep that the boats are on nearly reciprocal courses. In order for the boats to be on collision course, the windward boat is now approaching from the port side of the running boat. As he has argued, by the definitions of the rules, both boats are to windward of each other and both/neither have right of way.

The original question didn't make it clear which scenario applied, but in the 20+ years I've been racing, the first happens all the time but I can't remember an instance of the second. I agree it is conceivable and I agree with Gordon's interpretation of the rules. It is an intriguing hole in the rules. However I think it unlikely that it is actually answering the question.

I think a lot of the confusion has arisen because people think Gordon is talking about the first scenario rather than the second. It certainly confused me for a while.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Apr 06 at 6:16pm

In gordon's sketch the boats arent overlapped (yet)!  And neither is clear astern!  So neither is yet obligated to keep clear!  If they are on a collision course then I would argue that gordon's second scenario as explained by Stefan is impossible - at least part of the leeward side of one of the boats must be creating the overlap.

And if they are side by side (ie become overlapped) (not for long - closing speed will be large!) then neither have become obligated to keep clear!  And neither are constrained in the right to luff apart from by allowing room to keep clear if they luff or bear away - neither establish the overlap from clear astern.    

So it really is a knotty one - but if the running boat gybes she is establishing rights and must therefore give an oppurtunity to keep clear.  If she luffs at any time once overlapped it would be almost impossible for the close-hauled boat to keep clear.  The port tack boat has less speed and freedom of manoeuvre.

My view - if they touch - flick both the "t**ts.

 
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