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dics 
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 05 Oct 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 317 |
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 Topic: Sailing rulesPosted: 20 Feb 06 at 10:27am |
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What’s the ruling? A boat on “conventional” port tack sailing by-the-lee meets another boat on port beating to windward. The beating boat hails “Windward boat keep clear!”. Do any of the rules, rule in favour of the boat sailing by-the-lee?
Dics |
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Prince Buster
Really should get out more 
Joined: 15 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1146 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 11:17am |
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No normal rules of windward boat keeps clear applies.
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international moth - "what what?"
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tack'ho
Really should get out more
Joined: 08 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1100 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 12:17pm |
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I've been thinking about this. A boats by lees windward side is the side opposite to the the side the sail is on, ie downwind. Now I think this rule is in place to avoid confusion when 2 running boats, one by the lee come together. So surely that means that both boats are to windward of each other and therfore neither have have rights. I suggest the singlehanded sailor luffs up a fraction and goes behind the port boat, in the its quickest to stay out of trouble theory of life |
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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jeffers
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 12:55pm |
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I would disagree with Tack'ho and say the standard when boats are on the same tack the Windward boat shall keep clear of the leeward boat.
A good way to get back at assymetrics on a run is to go deep by the lee on starboard and hold them out on port until you can make a dash for the next mark. Works with RS200's and Lasers, probably wouldnt with a faster assy though! It doesn't matter where the wind is coming from it goes on the tack....the boat effectively below (ie on the side the sail in on if both boats are running deep) is the leeward boat. If one boat is close hauled its a no brainer (unless of the course the boat running by the lee is on starboard and the boat beating is on port). Paul |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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gordon
Really should get out more
Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 12:57pm |
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Both boats are on port tack. For both boats the other boat is on her windward side. Neither boat is clear astern of the other so they are overlapped. Rules 10, 11 and 12 do not define a keep clear boat in this situation. Neither boat acquires a right of way, nor changes course when right of way boat, so Rules 15 and 16.1 do not apply. Both boats are under an obligation to avoid contact (Rule 14), as neither has right of way nor is entitled to room the limits to Rule 14 do not apply. If there is contact between the boats the Protest Committee wil have to decide if one, or both failed to avoid contact. Whilst this situation seems to be a loophole in the rules, Rule 14 gives more than adequate protection to both boats.
Gordon
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Gordon
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Stefan Lloyd
Really should get out more
Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 1:25pm |
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By the lee makes no difference. It is the side the main is on that matters. See the definitions section of RRS and in particular the defintions of "tack" and "leeward". Since both boats are on port, windward must keep clear. Dead simple.
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gordon
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Joined: 07 Sep 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1037 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 1:48pm |
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Stefan, A by the lee port tack boat may well be sailing a reciprical course to a close hauled boat on port. If the by the lee boat passes upwind of the close hauled boat then both boats have the other to "windward" as defined by the definitions. Rule 11 specifically refers to the definition. At the risk of repeating my self, both boats are on port, both boats have the other to windward and neither boat is clear astern of the other. If I could integrate a sketch I could demonstrate this in seconds.Sketch the situation for yourself... a by the lee boat on port sailing an exact opposite course to a boat close hauled on port. If the course of the by the lee boat crosses upwind of the close hauled boat then all of the above applies.
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Gordon
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moomin
Groupie 
Joined: 19 Jan 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 60 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 1:53pm |
I would disagree with Gordon on this, under the definitions section of the rules a boat overlapped when neither are clear astern. A boat is clear astern when it is behind a line drawn across the transom of the other boat. In the case of 2 boats heading towards each other, neither boat is clear astern therefore they are by definition overlapped, rule 11 therfore applies, 2 boats on same tack overlapped, the windward boat is the boat coming downhill and therfore must keep clear. I would agree with other forum members that running by the lee has no effect, would be impossible to define on the water. Moomin Edited by moomin |
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Moomin
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Stefan Lloyd
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Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 2:25pm |
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That is hard to imagine in practice. A single-hander might sail 10 degrees or so by the lee. They aren't going to sail 40-45 degrees by the lee. |
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Bumble
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 12 Nov 05 Location: Taiwan Online Status: Offline Posts: 302 |
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Posted: 20 Feb 06 at 2:32pm |
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This should be in racing rules!! I have to side with Gordon on this, though Stefan as always is correct; neither boat has right to pursue a course which could end up in contact. Any interpretable lack of avoidance can go against either boat but if there is any doubt (i.e. they both hold course to contact) the windward boat would be in proverbial deep water. I feel this is an important point as it highlights the need for a rule stateing nobody has the 'rights of god' over anothers course and if we adhere to this, contact need never be made. Were I to be the boat heading upwind towards a boat on the same tack, sailing by the lee downwind I would feel he was a poor sport indeed as his change of course would be more straight forward without harming his tactical master plan. Also on most sailing courses he would be behind me and in a visually better position to see me and judge the distances........ all splitting hairs though. |
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