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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Race rules advice pls
    Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by Gfinch

What happens if you hit the committee boat, which is one end of the line?
This happened a few years back, when I was beating to the finish line, cross-tacking with the leading boat on the final leg.

During my final tack, there was a gust which made me heel more than anticipated and my mast touched the committee boat, but almost at the same time I crossed the line and received a finish.

I then did a 360 turn, and it was decided that instead of 2nd place I should be awarded 3rd, as in the time it took for me to do a 360, had I been racing still, the boat behind might have caught up.


A race committe vessel which is one end of the finish line is within the definition of 'Mark' in bold.
Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified
side, a race committee vessel surrounded by navigable water from which the
starting or finishing line extends, and an object intentionally attached to the
object or vessel. However, an anchor line is not part of the mark.

You should have done your turn and re-crossed the line from the course side, then you would have finished.
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 8:31pm
Originally posted by eric_c


A yacht is not required to leave a finishing 'mark' to a particular side, so how does R18 apply?

Its not a Mark, in bold, as per the definitions.


Maybe that's because references to definitions in the RRS are printed in italics.

Introduction Terminology

A term used in the sense stated in the Definitions is printed in italics


Every reference to 'finishing mark' in the RRS has 'mark' italicised.

Of course boats are required to leave finishing marks designating the port and starboard on those respective sides in order to finish and comply with rule 28.

Originally posted by eric_c


Is an object which defines the end of a finishing line actually an obstruction (if it's big enough!) so R19 applies?


If it's big enough, it's an obstruction, but, being a mark, unless it's a continuing obstruction, rule 18 and not rule 19 will apply. See rule 18.1(d).



Edited by Brass - 09 May 23 at 8:32pm
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eric_c View Drop Down
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Posts: 382 		Post Options Post Options   Quote eric_c Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 9:14pm
A boat is generally not required to leave the end of a finishing line to a particular side. It is specifically stated that once any part of the boat has crossed the line, a yacht is not required to fully cross the line after finishing. There is no way in plain English you can say a generic end of a finish line must be left on a particular side, unless the SIs require that. If the ends of a finish line were automatically 'marks' then the definition of 'mark' would not need to add the clause of a committee boat. If the end of a finsih line is a 'mark' then the definition of 'sailing the course would contradict the right to not fully cross the finish line. The rules are what the rules actually say, not any 'you know what they meant to say' /'spirit of the rules' mumbo jumbo.
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Posts: 210 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ClubRacer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 23 at 10:02pm
Originally posted by eric_c

A boat is generally not required to leave the end of a finishing line to a particular side. It is specifically stated that once any part of the boat has crossed the line, a yacht is not required to fully cross the line after finishing. There is no way in plain English you can say a generic end of a finish line must be left on a particular side, unless the SIs require that. If the ends of a finish line were automatically 'marks' then the definition of 'mark' would not need to add the clause of a committee boat. If the end of a finsih line is a 'mark' then the definition of 'sailing the course would contradict the right to not fully cross the finish line. The rules are what the rules actually say, not any 'you know what they meant to say' /'spirit of the rules' mumbo jumbo.

What?
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 3:02am
Originally posted by 423zero

I would have no respect for racers who deliberately aim to use the rules to force a win, if you are that keen aim for the middle and win on skill, not a barristers grasp of the rules.

How does one define "force a win"?  Isn't a person who may be diving into a spot that the other person can (perfectly legally) hold them out of the one who is "forcing a win"?

For many people, part of the joy of racing is the interplay of tactical positioning, which depends on using the rules. We love "chess on water". It's not "forcing a win" to use the rules any more than one is "forcing a win" to take your opponent's piece in a chess match.

Where does "forcing a win" end?  Is covering another sailor "forcing a win" or is it just part of the fun game we play? Personally I find that in the right place it's great fun, and so does everyone I know. 

If one is a more skilful sailor downwind and therefore causes your competitors to set a kite in a big breeze (risking a broach or capsize) aren't you "forcing" them to do something just as much as if you quietly say "windward boat keep clear please" at a mark in light winds?  In many boats, there's actual some risk of physical danger (or danger to the bank account) in the previous scenario so why is that OK but a quiet use of the rules of the game not OK?

My other sport is cycling, which is interesting because often the pros force their competitors to either blast down mountains at 90kmh, or drop out the back. The consequences of that "forcing" can be dire and yet it's lauded as part of the game.

By the way, I've put in just one protest in my life (during my short-lived teams racing career), never been DSQd apart from getting the course wrong*, and normally try to sail fast and clean, but to me being "clean" includes not putting yourself in the wrong position under the rules of the game.

* I didn't retire because there was an extra complication that an international jury took hours to decide
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 6:11am
Racing is a brilliant pastime, something for everyone. My personal experience has been that most sailors race to win by skill.


Edited to add, gives the crew something to do, looking out for infringements, waterproof paper and pen, just incase.

Edited by 423zero - 10 May 23 at 8:56am
Robert
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 11:12am
Using the rules IS a skill, just as much as any other part of sailing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say anything to the contrary, outside of once or twice on this forum. Implying that there's no skill in using the rules at times would imply there's no skill in chess or other games where using the rules is such a part of the challenge. If a grandmaster uses the rules to put the king in mate, that's the use of skill. If a sailor uses the rules to hold someone out at a mark, that's also the use of skill.

As noted earlier, I've only ever protested one person in my life (to decide a teams racing title when I got annoyed with someone breaking the P&S rule) and I'd say that the time the rules are used hardest seems to be when people are out playing around in totally informal fun races against mates, just for a laugh. It's not to be aggressive or to win, it's because it's such a fascinating extra layer of complication to throw over the rest of the sport.

While many of the events I love personally don't really allow use or favour of the rules for close-quarter tactics, it's undeniably very skilful and in fact I'd say it dramatically increases the required skill level and reduces the emphasis on buying fast gear.
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423zero View Drop Down
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 12:14pm
I agree with both your posts, nothing wrong with correcting rule breaking, especially if it gains them a win. I personally wouldn't put myself in a position to have to use a rule infringement to win a race, if in a very unlikely occurrence I was called out for rule breaking, even if I disagreed, I wouldn't dispute it.
Robert
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Old Timer View Drop Down
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Posts: 370 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old Timer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 1:54pm
There is no sport without rules; the whole business is an arbitrary construction to allow fair competition.

I find it bizarre when people come over all offended when someone points out a rule infringement as if it is some kind of slur on their character.

Know and respect the rules and play fair ... it is not hard.
  
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Sam.Spoons View Drop Down
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Posts: 3401 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Sam.Spoons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 May 23 at 5:09pm
Originally posted by eric_c

A yacht is not required to leave a finishing 'mark' to a particular side, so how does R18 apply?

"A boat finishes when, after starting, any part of her hull crosses the finishing line from the course side." so, by definition, she must pass the port mark to port and the starboard mark to starboard or she can't both cross the line and have approached it from the course side.”


When approaching the finish on a beam reach (as is common when back to back races are being held) the fastest route would usually be to windward of other boats, this usually means heading for the windward end of the line, maybe overlapped to windward of another boat. 


Edited by Sam.Spoons - 10 May 23 at 5:14pm
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