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Late starter View Drop Down
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Posts: 481 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Late starter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pay and Play
    Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 7:35pm
Originally posted by Demelza

Its just a question of detail, obvious rules for pay and play:
Only available at times of normal club activity.
Must use their own boat and safety equipment.
Must have Insurance.
Must keep out of the way of other club activities.
Use of changing facilities and catering optional.
All organised by officer of the day or whoever allready on site.
Typically I might visit 5/6 times a year say at £25 a visit. The clubs income could be the equivalent of another member.
Yep we thought of that when we looked at widening use of club boats to a sort of pay and play at my club. We couldn't come up with any sort of business plan that made sense, and there was a strong opinion held by some that actually this sort of approach would actually lose us money as some of our more fringe members would probably switch to pay and play. As others have said, clubs exist for a reason and tend to be run for the benefit of our members first and foremost.
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Posts: 7 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Pointing High Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 2:00pm
I know that the J70, RS21 and the Sonar were the three potential choices , and that they were all sail tested alongside each other at QMSC, and the Sonar was considered the most suitable overall. The boats are primarily used for Team racing and also RTYC members day sailing, and I would imagine the Sonar was a better option for the those purposes. 
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 12:48pm
Originally posted by john80

Do all of these clubs not have pretty generous benefactors that have put up the cash in the first place. How many of these clubs went and took out a loan and then tried to turn break even over the life and resale of boats. I suspect these examples are being distorted by benefactors. 

Some do, some don't, I believe. 
The J70s were bought new with benefactors help.
The Mermaids were paid for by the club, I think. But SVYC has been running P2P Mermaid racing since just after WW2. 
I think the Southern has picked up their 70s as and when finances allow. 
Not sure about RCYC, but I can't believe a 707 costs that much now?
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 11:24am
Originally posted by john80

Do all of these clubs not have pretty generous benefactors that have put up the cash in the first place. How many of these clubs went and took out a loan and then tried to turn break even over the life and resale of boats. I suspect these examples are being distorted by benefactors. 
I wouldn't be surprised if Lottery Money came into it? There are other sources of sponsorship, grants, etc. etc. Some clubs have a lot of members and turnover a fair amount of cash, which is often better 'spent' than declared as a profit. But some of these boats get pretty frequent use and may well cover their costs. There are also yachts available for charter, Sunsail will organise a day's racing in the Solent, you can do a pay'n'play Fastnet if you want.
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RS400atC View Drop Down
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Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 11:11am
Originally posted by CT249

It's interesting to see the J/80s being replaced by Sonars; do you know why that's happening?
I'd imagine the Sonar's links with paralympic sailing have a lot to do with it?
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 11:04am
Originally posted by CT249

It's interesting to see the J/80s being replaced by Sonars; do you know why that's happening?
The J80s are now utterly shagged, and need replacing. Everything that was a 6mm rivet/bolt when new is probably up to about 12mm now, what with drilling out and replacing. 

As to why they've gone with Sonars, I don't know. I can easily understand going with a 23' boat rather than 26' - easier for a crew of 3, especially for women on the mainsheet, Plus there isn't 
that much room on QM, so a smaller boat is handy. They do need a boat with a symmetrical kite for match racing, but how the finances work and why they didn't go for say RS21s, I don't know. 

Would be nice to know sail area/wetted surface ratios for the J, Sonars and RSs. As they do a lot of their sailing on QM in winter, it's frequently very light winds, so a boat that can go well in under 5kts of breeze is a help. I have the vague impression that the Sonar does well here, as a boat designed for Long Island Sound? 

Nice from an umpiring perspective to not have transom hung rudders, though. And for those doing repairs. 
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john80 View Drop Down
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Posts: 37 		Post Options Post Options   Quote john80 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 10:29am
Do all of these clubs not have pretty generous benefactors that have put up the cash in the first place. How many of these clubs went and took out a loan and then tried to turn break even over the life and resale of boats. I suspect these examples are being distorted by benefactors. 
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CT249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 399 		Post Options Post Options   Quote CT249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Sep 22 at 9:30am
It's interesting to see the J/80s being replaced by Sonars; do you know why that's happening?
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Presuming Ed View Drop Down
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Posts: 641 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Sep 22 at 12:09pm
There are a number of clubs that offer pay and play for keelboats: 

1) Island Sailing Club, Cowes - Sonars. 
Mostly used for Tues night racing

2) Sea View YC - Seaview, IoW. Mermaids. 
The club's own one design. 3 man keelboat. 
As well as club racing, the club does lots of regattas for charters. Helps with running costs. 

3) Royal Corinthian, Burnham - 707s. 

4) Royal Thames YC, London.
J 80s - at Queen Mary (currently being replaced with Sonars). Used club racing/team racing. 
J70s - in Cowes. For both club events and J70 events. 

5) Royal Southern, Hamble. 
J70s. Club and class events. 

6) Royal Yacht Squadron, Cowes
J70s - club and class events. 
(A  of events run with RTYC/RYS combined fleets). 

Then there are the RYA's RS21s and Elliots in Weymouth. 

AFAIAA, all fleets are aimed at people who want to race, but don't want the hassle of owning their own keelboat. The Island Sonars aren't competitive with new Sonars, and the SVYC Mermaids are only found in SV, so there's no worry about keeping boats competitive with the class. 
I think the RTYC and RYS charge more for their charters to make sure the boats stay competitive. Be interesting to see what they do as the boats get older. The RTYC J80s at QM are all now well out of class. 

None of the above are for pottering/cruising - all the programmes are based around racing, and use club resources for race management. Most/?all? of the clubs above have paid staff taking care of the boats. 


Edited by Presuming Ed - 05 Sep 22 at 8:05am
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NicolaJayne View Drop Down
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Posts: 109 		Post Options Post Options   Quote NicolaJayne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Aug 22 at 12:00am
Originally posted by john80

I would suspect that to make pay and play work you would need to be very close to a large number of people with money. The venue would have to be relatively sheltered and with easy launching and recovery. Your season will likely be from say May to September and heavily fluctuating in interest depending upon weather. Sounds like a difficult business to run for me where every role is a paid role as you are very much a commercial centre. 



exactly this 
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